Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:58 pm

You do know that the majority of black Americans are killed by other black Americans. Also that in the past year in a country of 300 million people that police only killed 9 unarmed black men. Yes this is unfortunate but doesn't support a narrative that cops are just hunting black men for sport. More black men die at the hands of other black men in a weekend in Chicago.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:59 pm

Here is a video that talks about the 1619 project and why is actually problematic to actually helping blacks and minorities in America.

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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:27 am

@MTVCCVC
I'm surprised someone from Croatia knows more truth about what's going on today than many Americans themselves. But that's probably the issue, all this BS indoctrination in public schools is to blame.

Slavery should not be a major theme in American history. Was it bad? Most definitely. It can be mentioned and I have no issue with that. The issue is that it is blown out of proportion. The Civil War was not primarily about slavery, it was about unifying the country. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the Southern states, it was a military move on Lincoln's part to get them to riot and fight against the rebelling Southerners. Obviously, it would have been ridiculous to overturn this after the war was over. The point is, public schools use slavery to guilt-trip white people and enrage blacks. Every single U.S. history course I've ever taken had a major focus on slavery. White people are in no way responsible for what their ancestors did in the past. Race relations are nowhere near as bad now as they were back then.

America is not systemically racist. The killing of a handful of black men every year by police officers is not proof of this. There is no evidence whatsoever that these men were killed because of their race. The fact that there are many blacks in positions of power in politics, acting, and sports is evidence against this. The fact that we elected a black man as president twice is evidence against this. Listen to people like Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman on this subject, they make the same arguments. Blaming the system victimizes blacks and keeps them dependent on the government(liberals), who promise them the moon.

Why is black unemployment lowest in history now? Why wasn't it at its lowest when we had our black president, who for some time had control of both the house and the senate? Why wasn't "systemic racism" dealt with then? Why did race relations continue to be poor under his presidency?
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:46 pm

GreeKnight wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:27 am
I'm surprised someone from Croatia knows more truth about what's going on today than many Americans themselves. But that's probably the issue, all this BS indoctrination in public schools is to blame.
That could be part of it, but I don't think you're quite on the right track with this one. From my perspective, it seems that the source of all this activism and indoctrination are the universities and you have to add to that the unlikely bedfellow they have in the majority of the media.

It then trickles down to public and private schools through approved coursework, handed down from the universities, taught by staff that were educated at these universities, etc.
GreeKnight wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:27 am
The point is, public schools use slavery to guilt-trip white people and enrage blacks. Every single U.S. history course I've ever taken had a major focus on slavery.
It does seem that the topic of slavery in america is treated like original sin is by devout catholics.

We've got a similar issue here. People are stuck in the past, constantly nursing old wounds, often those they weren't even alive for themselves, never moving on.
Half the country bitches about the fascist from the 40s, the other half about the communist after that, a mix of the two constantly yammering on and on about the war and here I am in the middle of all that with a handful of others just asking: "who gives a shit, what are we going to do tomorrow?"
And while they are constantly yelling at each other while doing buttfuck nothing to fix any current issues, the country keeps sinking around them point fingers and blaming each other for it.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am

Does that extend to people whose projects you disagree with ideologically? You know, creationists back in the day put in a lot of effort too. Didn't really see a lot of "You know, maybe you have a point there" from some of the people whose videos you shared.
At least I actually engage with the arguments of the other side before judging them. After all I am still talking to you even though we disagree on almost everything. And when was the last time I shared a video on a creatonist on this thread??
You seriously see nothing insidious with pushing the narrative that American history really begins with slavery and not with the e.g. the first settlers fleeing Europe to live free(r) or when the country gained independence and established itself? Nothing at all wrong wrong with implying that racism, slavery and oppression is woven into the very essence of the country and nation or why that might rub some people the wrong way?
I can see why it might rub some people the wrong way. Doesn´t mean there isn´t still something wrong with America today.
Then make it.
I have a better idea - you actually start familiarizing yourself with the project and then tell me whats so wrong with their arguments.
and? what's the problem other than being annoying to foreigners?
I wouldn´t downplay this. Aside from alienating the US from its allies, extreme patriotism also could lead to nationalism (dangerous in our modern world, were we depend more and more on cooperation between different countries) the country overestimating itself, or not seeing and fixing already existing problems.
How convenient that what you've read just so happens to shine a saintly light on him.
The same article that focused a lot on his criminal record?
The line about the evil cops murdering poor innocent black men for no reason.
So your saying the death of George Floyd wasn´t murder?
You do know that the majority of black Americans are killed by other black Americans.
Yes, I do know. How does that make it any better when a white cop murders a black man?

Do you know that right wing extremism is actually causing more deaths at the moment than people killed or harmed in protests?? Its weird that we usually only talk about the left wing fucking up on this thread, even though we have so many self styled liberals and centrists here.

Here is an interesting article on the subject that also talks about why it is dangerous when Trump calls ANTIFA a terrorist organization -

https://theconversation.com/trump-claim ... ger-142649
Yes this is unfortunate but doesn't support a narrative that cops are just hunting black men for sport.
Then it is good that I am not supporting that narrative.
Here is a video that talks about the 1619 project and why is actually problematic to actually helping blacks and minorities in America.
Thanks. That might actually be helpful.
Why is black unemployment lowest in history now?
I don´t know. But black unemployment has been decreasing for a long time now. Which of course didn´t stop Trump from taking credit for it...
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:11 am

Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
At least I actually engage with the arguments of the other side before judging them. After all I am still talking to you even though we disagree on almost everything.
If we exclude the 30 dead people due to the BLM riots you still haven't addressed. Or any of the other things you so exasperatedly handwaved away with "do I really need to unpack all of this?" a few posts back.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
And when was the last time I shared a video on a creatonist on this thread??
You posted the Apologetics is bad for Christianity video (from 2013) two pages ago. Even so, I didn't say this because you posted videos, I said it because that is one of your obvious hangups.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
I can see why it might rub some people the wrong way. Doesn´t mean there isn´t still something wrong with America today.
Doesn't mean exaggerating and generalizing, to say nothing of out and out fabricating narratives, will help in any way, shape or form.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
I wouldn´t downplay this. Aside from alienating the US from its allies, extreme patriotism also could lead to nationalism (dangerous in our modern world, were we depend more and more on cooperation between different countries) the country overestimating itself, or not seeing and fixing already existing problems.
You know, nationalism does not automatically mean invade the rest of the world. Considering that many of our current day problems arise from internationalism and globalism, to include the current pandemic, pealing back a little on this might not be so bad.
To say nothing about the fact that many of the international projects that claim to be against nationalism, like the EU, are really no less imperialistic than "old-school" nationalism. EU is trying to expand and control just the same as any empire. They just do it under the auspices of European 'nationalism'. That they suck at it is not really a refutation.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
The same article that focused a lot on his criminal record?
And all the other things about how he wanted to turn his life around, despite having drugs in his system and trying to pawn off forged money, which is what the cops were called for in the first place.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
So your saying the death of George Floyd wasn´t murder?
He died of a heart attack, not asphyxiation. At the very least, it isn't that simple. Now the question is what induced the heart attack.
Regardless, considering how many innocent people have been killed in the riots in his name, I don't care.

He didn't deserve to die for being drugged and passing off forged money, but then again, he shouldn't have done that and shouldn't have been resisting the cops.
If not for any moral reasons, at least for basic sensible reasons. You should understand that when you resist arrest there is a higher likelihood that you will be killed, especially in urban america. That's a responsibility you take upon yourself when yo do that. Sometimes, it is morally warranted to make that choice and take that risk.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
Yes, I do know. How does that make it any better when a white cop murders a black man?
It certainly makes it a rarer event.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
Do you know that right wing extremism is actually causing more deaths at the moment than people killed or harmed in protests??
Please quantify that statement. I want to know what you are talking about. If we are talking about globally, then I get it. ISIL and all that...
But if you are talking about America, you have to go back a decade and change to make that statement true, which is at that point a little bit suspect at least.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:04 am
I don´t know. But black unemployment has been decreasing for a long time now. Which of course didn´t stop Trump from taking credit for it...
Didn't stop others from twisting themselves into a pretzel just to find any way to deny him any credit for it either...

At least some figures might actually serve to demonstrate something:
Image
Make of that what you will...
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:57 pm

If we exclude the 30 dead people due to the BLM riots you still haven't addressed.
Well, I didn´t adress them because I gave you the benefit of a doubt and considered it true what you reported, unlike the bit about George Floyd threatening a pregnant woman.
Even so, I didn't say this because you posted videos, I said it because that is one of your obvious hangups.
I admit, I enjoy picking apart religous bullshit, so?
Considering that many of our current day problems arise from internationalism and globalism, to include the current pandemic, pealing back a little on this might not be so bad.
Won´t fix climate change, though if everyone suddenly does his own thing again. And there are probably more issues like that I am not thinking of right now...
And all the other things about how he wanted to turn his life around
Which was about the only positive thing mentioned there from what I remember. Still doesn´t make him a saint.
Now the question is what induced the heart attack.
Well, according to the final autopsy report it had to do with the police pressing on his neck. -

"In layman's terms, the medical examiner said Floyd died from a sudden failure in his heart's ability to pump blood to his brain due to the stress put on his body by the arresting officer pressing upon his neck."

https://www.newsweek.com/hennepin-count ... ed-1508562
Regardless, considering how many innocent people have been killed in the riots in his name, I don't care.
Doesn´t change the fact that his death was a crime.
Please quantify that statement. I want to know what you are talking about. 
" In analyzing fatalities from terrorist attacks, religious terrorism has killed the largest number of individuals—3,086 people—primarily due to the attacks on September 11, 2001, which caused 2,977 deaths.10 The magnitude of this death toll fundamentally shaped U.S. counterterrorism policy over the past two decades. In comparison, right-wing terrorist attacks caused 335 deaths, left-wing attacks caused 22 deaths, and ethnonationalist terrorists caused 5 deaths. "

https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalatin ... ted-states
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:22 am

Ghost13 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:57 pm
Well, I didn´t adress them because I gave you the benefit of a doubt and considered it true what you reported, unlike the bit about George Floyd threatening a pregnant woman.
You didn't comment at all. Not even so much as to say that it is inappropriate for that to have happened, but you latched on to Geroge and his death.
And if you are going to say something like: "I don't have to say it. It should be assumed that I mean so." That isn't the case considering that the crux of the discussion isn't George but as you put it: " I blame it more on the people murdering black Americans."

If you make a statement like that and I ask you what about all the people that have died during and/or due to the riots and you sideline that and step over to talking about George only, it gives off the impression that those people do not matter, because their faces and names weren't plastered all over media and social media the same way.

As for Geroge threatening a pregnant woman, this is from snopes, who i don't trust and think are almost certainly biased in Geroge's direction: (put in spoiler tag due to length)
Spoiler: Show
Lastly, in 2007, authorities arrested and charged Floyd with his most serious crime: aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon.

According to police officers’ probable-cause statement, which is often the basis of prosecutors’ case against suspects, the incident (on Aug. 9, 2007) unfolded like this: Two adults, Aracely Henriquez and Angel Negrete, and a toddler were in a home when they heard a knock at the front door. When Henriquez looked out the window, she saw a man “dressed in a blue uniform” who said “he was with the water department.” But when she opened the door, she realized the man was telling a lie and she tried shutting him out. Then, the statement reads:

However, this male held the door open and prevented her from doing so. At this time, a black Ford Explorer pulled up in front of the Complainants’ residence and five other black males exited this vehicle and proceeded to the front door. The largest of these suspects forced his way into the residence, placed a pistol against the complainant’s abdomen, and forced her into the living room area of the residence. This large suspect then proceeded to search the residence while another armed suspect guarded the complainant, who was struck in the head and side areas by this second armed suspect with his pistol after she screamed for help. As the suspects looked through the residence, they demanded to know where the drugs and money were and Complaint Henriquez advised them that there were no such things in the residence. The suspects then took some jewelry along with the complainant’s cell phone before they fled the scene in the black Ford Explorer.

About three months later, investigators in the Houston Police Department narcotics unit “came across this vehicle during one of the their respective investigations and identified the following subjects as occupants of this vehicle at the time of their investigation: George Floyd (Driver)…,” the statement reads.

At 6-foot-7, Floyd was identified as the “the largest” of the six suspects who arrived at the home in the Ford Explorer and had pushed a pistol against Henriquez’ abdomen before looking for items to steal. (Nothing in the court documents suggests she was pregnant at the time of the robbery, contrary to what memes and Owens later claimed.) He pleaded guilty in 2009 and was sentenced to five years in prison. He was paroled in January 2013, when he was almost 40 years old.
The extent as to why the point is deemed untrue is that:
(Nothing in the court documents suggests she was pregnant at the time of the robbery, contrary to what memes and Owens later claimed.)
The rest is true, but there's nothing in the court documents that suggest she was pregnant, so the whole thing must be a lie.
Ghost13 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:57 pm
I admit, I enjoy picking apart religous bullshit, so?
So it is a bit hypocritical to complain about other people not giving the benefit of the doubt to ideologies and narratives they consider to be bullshit.
Ghost13 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:57 pm
Which was about the only positive thing mentioned there from what I remember. Still doesn´t make him a saint.
Hyperbole...
Ghost13 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:57 pm
Well, according to the final autopsy report it had to do with the police pressing on his neck. -

"In layman's terms, the medical examiner said Floyd died from a sudden failure in his heart's ability to pump blood to his brain due to the stress put on his body by the arresting officer pressing upon his neck."

https://www.newsweek.com/hennepin-count ... ed-1508562
I've read that and I'm not sure how much stock I can put into that, especially when they qualify it with "in layman's terms". Sudden failure to pump blood into the brain is a carotid choke, often used in martial arts. That usually results in fairly swift passing out. It doesn't result in panicked calls for your mother, because you know you are dying.

It is possible that the pressure applied to his neck and body in conjunction with his supposed heart condition could have caused failure. In that case, it isn't murder 1. At most it is negligent homicide.
Ghost13 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:57 pm
Doesn´t change the fact that his death was a crime.
Probably. Still don't care and if given the choice whether to pursue the Geroge Floyd case or any of the cases related to the deaths and destruction during the riots, I choose the deaths of innocents being killed or ruined by unaccountable mobs any time. Ideally, the court should be able to handle both, though.
Ghost13 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:57 pm
Won´t fix climate change, though if everyone suddenly does his own thing again. And there are probably more issues like that I am not thinking of right now...
Internationalism isn't fixing it either, so what's your point? Not to mention that even in an international world, some national interests are never changing and energy is one of them, especially if you do not trust the other side to abide by the same restraining rules as you do.
Even so, the UN or multi-national treaties won't fix climate change, only newer and better technologies and the implementation of those are currently more hampered by lobbying and vested interests than by nationalism.

There are many issues out there that cannot be fixed by nationalism or internationalism. Some of the staunchest activists for internationalism are the biggest NIMBY-ers alive.
That said, it is a more natural state of affairs at this point in time for nations to first worry about their own needs and citizens first and then help others out if there's time and resources left, rather than worrying about trying to fix the entire planet all at once, especially since many of the people who advocate for this have no idea what it's like in other parts of the world politically, economically, culturally, etc.

It's why the german way of running the economy would not work for pretty much 25 of the other states in the EU, for instance.


There is also one thing that will never change and that is that countries/nations have interests, no matter how much they talk about wanting to be a part of a global community.
Poland did not join the EU and NATO, because they love Germand and France ever so much. They did it for selfish nationalistic reasons, much like most of the EU/NATO members.
Ghost13 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:57 pm
" In analyzing fatalities from terrorist attacks, religious terrorism has killed the largest number of individuals—3,086 people—primarily due to the attacks on September 11, 2001, which caused 2,977 deaths.10 The magnitude of this death toll fundamentally shaped U.S. counterterrorism policy over the past two decades. In comparison, right-wing terrorist attacks caused 335 deaths, left-wing attacks caused 22 deaths, and ethnonationalist terrorists caused 5 deaths. "

https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalatin ... ted-states
Interesting. I wonder how they would classify these months of riots and destruction in pursuit of political goals... Maybe mostly peaceful protests or something.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 am

You didn't comment at all. Not even so much as to say that it is inappropriate for that to have happened, but you latched on to Geroge and his death.
Yeah, because I tried to tell you that I wouldn´t blame the riots/protests on universities but on the cops murdering black people. I don´t really get why you´ve countered this by saying that a lot of people were killed/harmed in them.
The rest is true, but there's nothing in the court documents that suggest she was pregnant, so the whole thing must be a lie.
As I haven´t heard of any evidence in support of the pregnancy It might very well be a lie meant to vilify Floyd.
So it is a bit hypocritical to complain about other people not giving the benefit of the doubt to ideologies and narratives they consider to be bullshit.
I can´t remember a time I called an ideologic idea bullshit without picking it apart, though. Which is what I think you have done with the 1619 project.
Hyperbole...
You and your hyperbole...
It is possible that the pressure applied to his neck and body in conjunction with his supposed heart condition could have caused failure. In that case, it isn't murder 1. At most it is negligent homicide.
Still doesn´t make the police look too good...
Internationalism isn't fixing it either, so what's your point?
I do believe however, that we come a lot closer to fixing it in a none nationalistic world. Another issue I forgot is the refugee crisis.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:14 pm

Ghost13 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 am
Yeah, because I tried to tell you that I wouldn´t blame the riots/protests on universities but on the cops murdering black people. I don´t really get why you´ve countered this by saying that a lot of people were killed/harmed in them
I find it hard to give them the excuse that they were oh so sorry for one black person they never met being killed that they decided to kill 30 innocent people, beat and injure many more and loot and torch other people's property. Even if they were legitimately so shocked and saddened, it does not give them the right to victimize others.

These people are violent deviants and I do not care for their feigned outrage and excuses. I do not feel that waving their responsibility for the actions they decided to take is right or just, by shifting it off to cops.
Ghost13 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 am
As I haven´t heard of any evidence in support of the pregnancy It might very well be a lie meant to vilify Floyd.
I think the rest of the story is enough to justly vilify him. I don't find the unclear question of her pregnancy to be a matter of much importance there, unless you want to discredit a largely true story.
Ghost13 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 am
I can´t remember a time I called an ideologic idea bullshit without picking it apart, though. Which is what I think you have done with the 1619 project.
So in order to accept my point about it, that it is a selectively presented, ideologically tinged narrative that aims to place race and slavery at the center of American history, as I've repeated now multiple times, you'd need me to do an in debt essay on it, going through it point by point, in order for you to be satisfied?
Ghost13 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 am
Still doesn´t make the police look too good...
Better than what they are being portrayed as, which is bordering on KKK members doing drive-bys on innocent unsuspecting black men.
Ghost13 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:11 am
I do believe however, that we come a lot closer to fixing it in a none nationalistic world. Another issue I forgot is the refugee crisis.
Sadly, that is a comfortable delusion. when you get into the realm of national and international issues,now you are talking geopolitics and the Great Game.
Here, selfish nationalistic interests run the show, no matter how noble a cloak one hides his daggers behind.

Take for instance the supposed dream of all internationalists: world peace. Imagine for a moment that the UN proposed that all nations unanimously disarm and disband their military. how many seconds do you believe that would even be entertained before being laughed out of the room, because absolutely no nation would actually trust its neighbors to do the same even if they were willing to?

As someone whose country has a very dramatic history with multinational so-called post-national projects that aimed to unify even supposedly brotherly nations into one entity, all of which crashed and burned spectacularly and bloodily, I think I have a bit more realistic perspective on the issue of internationalism and post-nationalism.

A none nationalistic world requires that a German is pretty much exactly the same as a French, as a Belgian, as a Spaniard, as a Britt, as an American, as a Croatian, as a Turk, as a Russian, etc. etc. etc. and that their countries, despite their vastly differing geographic, demographic, economic, social, historical, cultural and political realities function the same way.
I don't see that happening in even the most Star Trek-ian future. Don't forget that national sentiment and mentality are an evolution centuries and millenia in the making and a positive one compared to everything that came before. they provide stability and social cohesion.
if you break it down with this multi-kulti crap and cultural relativism, you get the issues we are suffering now: tribalization and segregation, which lead to extremism and vioence.

As for the refugee crisis, considering how much of a failure that has been for the internationalists welcoming these refugees with open arms and no plans what to do with them, attempting to force them on countries that don't want them and that these refugee's, the legitimate ones that is, are fleeing warzones that were created through international interventions with bombs and CIA type shit, I can't really take it as a point in favour of internationalim.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 am

These people are violent deviants and I do not care for their feigned outrage and excuses. I do not feel that waving their responsibility for the actions they decided to take is right or just, by shifting it off to cops.
You do know that not all protestors murdered or destroyed stuff right? I don´t approve of those, but I can see why there are protest based on the actions of those cops that resulted in the death of George Floyd.
I think the rest of the story is enough to justly vilify him. I don't find the unclear question of her pregnancy to be a matter of much importance there, unless you want to discredit a largely true story.
Well, he was a criminal, but he did not deserve to die.
So in order to accept my point about it, that it is a selectively presented, ideologically tinged narrative that aims to place race and slavery at the center of American history, as I've repeated now multiple times, you'd need me to do an in debt essay on it, going through it point by point, in order for you to be satisfied?
Not in debt essay, but in order for me to give credit to your point of view I need more than just an assertion.
Better than what they are being portrayed as, which is bordering on KKK members doing drive-bys on innocent unsuspecting black men.
Thats not the impression I get from news reporting. That said, I definately wouldn´t feel safe dealing with police men as a black person...
Sadly, that is a comfortable delusion.
Then why do so many politicians continue to attempt other political approaches other than nationalism if it will only blow up in their faces again and again? Maybe you have a more realistic look on it, but I could also say you are biased because it didn´t work with your country.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:06 am

Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 am
You do know that not all protestors murdered or destroyed stuff right? I don´t approve of those, but I can see why there are protest based on the actions of those cops that resulted in the death of George Floyd.
Your point is very mute considering that the vast majority of cops don't kill random black man randomly for random reasons, despite what you and these protesters and rioters may have been led to believe.

Do not come to me with the "you know that not all X do" when it is the basis of your pov regarding cops killing black men so much you would be afraid to deal with a cop if you had a particularly dark tan. (hyperbole)
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 am
Well, he was a criminal, but he did not deserve to die.
And assuming that he did in fact died due to police negligence or brutality and not an overdose and a heart condition, i agree. I still don't care.
If the cops hassled him for no reason and then killed him, maybe then I would, but they were called on him by an innocent bystander because he was breaking the law. (passing off forged money and being intoxicated)
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 am
Not in debt essay, but in order for me to give credit to your point of view I need more than just an assertion.
DJ gave you enough to go on, then. If you want more, you have to be more specific as to what exactly you want.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 am
Thats not the impression I get from news reporting. That said, I definately wouldn´t feel safe dealing with police men as a black person...
That last sentence and your previous statement that the cops need to stop murdering black men and everything would be hunky-dory kind of invalidates your first.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 am
Maybe you have a more realistic look on it, but I could also say you are biased because it didn´t work with your country.
Maybe, but my country is hardly unique and the only example. Infact, I'd say there are way more examples of international/postnational projects failing than succeeding.
Since we are talking about bias, do you think you might have an unreasonable bias against nationalism? I don't see a lot of flexibility from your side or even so much as an acknowledgement that in moderation, whatever that means in your mind, nationalism is not bad.
Ghost13 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 am
Then why do so many politicians continue to attempt other political approaches other than nationalism if it will only blow up in their faces again and again?
I'm going to assume you're not as naive as that question makes you seem.
Basically, countless moral and ethical reasons could apply, but most of them end up being variations on two main themes:
1 - The politician is a corrupt cunt whose money interests lie outside of his country or nation and is beholden to the wishes of other countries, international organizations or multinational corporations.
2 - the politician is an arrogant, ignorant and ignorant of the level of his own ignorance, self-important twat who believes it is his obligation, or burden if you will, to fix the world

There are some subtypes that you probably won't see in a country like Germany, for instance.
You have the spineless defetist, a very popular type here in Croatia who doesn't believe, he knows with absolute certainty that we are too small to achieve anything on our own and we need to be part of a larger collective of nations in order to not starve.
Then there is the self-righteous and selfhating type who despises his own nation because they are half-witted, bigoted rubes who just can't fucking drag their heels into modernity and need an outside force to bring them on the right path, whether they like it or not.
There is also the type that just cares ever so much for every person on the planet, but not his own countrymen who have it too good anyway.

And that's assuming they actually believe what they say and aren't just lying to gain power or to placate their voting base or are delusional zealots to some utopian ideology.

The sad fact is that today you have mostly politicians and very few statesmen. Realpoitik and geopolitics are probably considered relics of a bygone past by the modern crop of so called leaders.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:00 pm

One of these days I'm going to have to read or audio-read Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein, because this actually sounds quite interesting.



Honestly, there is actually a lot of good ideas in this. Earning the right to vote as opposed to just being given it might actually be something we could use today.

If nothing else, developing a better common understanding of the virtues of duty and responsibility would help many modern day people.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:19 pm

I have read the book and it has very little to do with the movie. I read many a Heinlien novel as a teenager/ young adult and his early stuff is his best. This book is like a diary of the main character's life after he joins the service (and is basically only qualified for infantry). Book is way better than the movie. And some of the philosophy in the book is interesting.

To your second point in the US we used to have civics classes in High School (I guess they started phasing them out in the 90s) and you learned all about our government systems (federal vs. state vs. local) and the duties of each. You learned your rights and responsibilities as a US citizen and I think it helped my generation greatly because the lack understanding about how the government is supposed to work has made younger adults open to absolute BS from politicians.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:33 pm

MTVCCVC wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:00 pm
One of these days I'm going to have to read or audio-read Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein, because this actually sounds quite interesting.



Honestly, there is actually a lot of good ideas in this. Earning the right to vote as opposed to just being given it might actually be something we could use today.

If nothing else, developing a better common understanding of the virtues of duty and responsibility would help many modern day people.
Is it wrong that the thought of some sort of military elite running the country horrifies me?
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:49 pm

Well in the book it is the whole planet as there is one world government. It isn't military elite running the world it is people who have done service and understand the sacrifice of possibly laying down your life to protect the world. In the book laws are very clear and punishment is public. I am not saying it is perfect, and I don't agree with everything in the story, but government does not lead a totalitarian world. People in the book have fairly normal lives and have individual rights they just can't vote if they don't do service.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:26 pm

DaisyJane wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:49 pm
Well in the book it is the whole planet as there is one world government. It isn't military elite running the world it is people who have done service and understand the sacrifice of possibly laying down your life to protect the world. In the book laws are very clear and punishment is public. I am not saying it is perfect, and I don't agree with everything in the story, but government does not lead a totalitarian world. People in the book have fairly normal lives and have individual rights they just can't vote if they don't do service.
I know. I just said one country because MTV described it as a possible way to run a state.

You might be right that the people who rule the Terran Federation aren´t just military (TV Tropes says merchant marines or something aren´t considered to have done "service" to society apparently, make of that what you will), but if I understand the backstory of Troopers correctly as described in that video it were veterans who basicly built that society from the ground up, thus taking away the right to vote from "none service people", and that does not seem much better. I espacially find it hard to believe that a society at one point dominated by the military would be as idyllic as described in Starship Troopers, where children don´t even dare to skip school...its a Mary Suetopia similar to what I´ve otherwise only have seen described in a bad Black Panther run. And that doesn´t seem like writing I like, even if I ignore the super patriotic and militarist aspects.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:31 pm

Ghost13 wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:26 pm
I know. I just said one country because MTV described it as a possible way to run a state.
Interestingly, the military elite do not run things. You earn the franchise after completing your service.

That means that technically, those who vote are former military, not active military.

Citizens are people who have completed service and they return to normal life after that. The difference being that they have made the sacrifice and went through the hardship required of them to judge and test their character to make sure the will not squander it.


Consider that the society they describe really has very limited authority over the citizen and civilian. For instance, service is a right, not an obligation. A right they can't deny you under almost any circumstance.

Hell, the military can't even stop a bunch of civilians from trying to colonize a dangerous planet and getting themselves and others killed.

Now, whether the setting is realistic or not, the idea that the right to vote should be earned may not be so bad. In the end, something given has no value and we are doing a shit job these days of even so much as promoting the virtue of responsibility in modern society.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm

You can't have freedom without responsibility. I think a lot of people want to do whatever they want but the not bear the consequences. Consequences are painful gifts that help correct behavior that will destroy a person and the society around said person.
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Re: Political thoughts, views, and standpoints here...

Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:42 am

And here's a vid from the same author discussing the philosophical and political points of the Terran Federation and how they relate to modern day, from his pov. Coincidentally, the author is norwegian, so he has a slightly different pov to what you might assume.



I think he does a good job addressing the pros and cons of both and he doesn't make almost any conclusive statements. it's worth watching.
you can set the playback speed to 1,50x if you don't have the time.
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