WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

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The_GD_Patman
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WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:58 pm

So I'm watching an in app program (The program is called DC University) on DC Universe today that chronicles various "best of" moments in DC history. And in "Top 10 romance stories of all time" at spot 8 pops up JLA 90. And best of all, there was no SMWW, BatCat, or WonderTrev on this list. Our ship was there beside Lois and Clark in All-Star Superman and Dick and Babs in the post crisis Nightwing run.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:56 am

Could you detail the whole list?
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:45 pm

That seems quite odd indeed. Is this a new show ? How recent is this list ? Still this is pretty amazing. Reminds me of that video they posted on the official DC channel on YT, where they listed the top 10 kisses and ranked the WonderBat kiss from Blackest Night at 8. I remember many people losing their s%#t over that one. Cool to see some support for BMWW in any official capacity.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:04 am

ISAK wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:56 am
Could you detail the whole list?
Sure! It goes like this:

1. Superman and Lois Lane in All Star Superman
2. Green Arrow & Black Canary in Green Arrow vol. 3 issues 74-75
3. Dick Grayson & Barbra Gordon in Nightwing vol.2 Annual #2
4. Harley Quinn & The Joker in Mad Love
5. Elongated Man & Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis
6. Wally West & Linda Park in The Flash vol.2 issue 100
7. Donna Troy & Terry Long in Tales of the Teen Titans #50
8. Batman & Wonder Woman in JLA issue 90
9. Blue Beetle & Traci Thirteen inBlue Beetle vol.3 issue 16
10. Batwoman & Maggie Sawyer in Batwoman vol.2 issue 23
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:13 am

ARB wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:45 pm
That seems quite odd indeed. Is this a new show ? How recent is this list ? Still this is pretty amazing. Reminds me of that video they posted on the official DC channel on YT, where they listed the top 10 kisses and ranked the WonderBat kiss from Blackest Night at 8. I remember many people losing their s%#t over that one. Cool to see some support for BMWW in any official capacity.
I'm pretty sure the series existed before the DCU platform, but I'm not sure were it was broadcast before the DCU. I believe it ranges from 2014-2016 (the more recent episodes based around Rebirth as it was happening). The detractors can mule on as they will, the Blackest Night kiss has stood the test of time and deserves the inclusion on such a list (especially when contextualized within it's own narrative. Wonder Woman's arc had such gravitas). You're absolutely right, I love it when DC has to hearken back when they almost made a logical choice and paired these 2 up.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:56 am

The video I think Is about 2-3 years old now...it came on Valentine's day...infact I had commented too on that video.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:59 am

ARB wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:45 pm
That seems quite odd indeed. Is this a new show ? How recent is this list ? Still this is pretty amazing. Reminds me of that video they posted on the official DC channel on YT, where they listed the top 10 kisses and ranked the WonderBat kiss from Blackest Night at 8. I remember many people losing their s%#t over that one. Cool to see some support for BMWW in any official capacity.
You're right but as far as I remember there were more positive comments in that video as they from more Asian people...in the Asian continent there is quite good supporters here of BMWW.
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There are many superhero couples out there!
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But only one superhero couple have their own site-
BatmanWonderWoman!!!!!

BMWW forever!!!

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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:18 pm

The_GD_Patman wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:13 am
The detractors can mule on as they will, the Blackest Night kiss has stood the test of time and deserves the inclusion on such a list (especially when contextualized within it's own narrative. Wonder Woman's arc had such gravitas). You're absolutely right, I love it when DC has to hearken back when they almost made a logical choice and paired these 2 up.
It really did, didn't it ? That damned Blackest Night kiss is arguably the biggest reason BMWW still survives today, and it's the one thing most BMWW detractors hate on.

This reminds me of an argument I had on twitter, where a person who's supposedly OK with WonderBat, kept trying to tell me that the Blackest Night kiss was an insult to Diana, and that stuff like it is why people are afraid of the idea of BMWW happening. I tried to explain how amazing and well thought out that moment actually was, but to no avail. It's not like they made any real counter argument, as they pretty much kept on repeating the same point about how Diana had no issue killing her mother and sister but stopped when she saw Bruce, and how insulting that is. I explained how that's not really what happened if you actually read the story without any prejudice, but we kept going in circles until I gave up and we went our separate ways.

The build up around it and the way Nicola Scott illustrated it all made that one of biggest stand out events of the pre-New 52 era, and it still stand till this day as a well regarded moment in DC's history. But this is also why it's such a contentious topic because it's a reminded that BMWW isn't some fantasy that a few people have dreamt up, as many would like you to think.
BruceDianaForever wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:59 am
You're right but as far as I remember there were more positive comments in that video as they from more Asian people...in the Asian continent there is quite good supporters here of BMWW.
There are always positive comments on any BMWW video, especially from people who're not comic book fanatics. That's why such videos tend to attract haters as well, which why I remember the SMWW and BatCats crying in the comments because neither of their ships made it on the list, where both WonderBat and Clois did. That was a good video.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:41 pm

Honestly, i find JLA #90 more iconic, but BLACKEST NIGHT: WONDER WOMAN is a good moment also, specially because it came years after editorial had tried to bury it the first time around.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:38 pm

Got both issues in graphic novel form. Buy only comics when they were good.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:41 pm

JLA #90 is ugly as sin though, with some weird head scratching moments here and there, which in my opinion detract from it a great deal. Blackest Night in comparison was fantastic all around, and unlike JLA #90 it presented by far the biggest pro-BMWW moment that we've ever gotten til this day. Furthermore, unlike the way JLA #90 ended things off between Diana and Bruce, we still have yet to get any real pay-off for what happened in Blackest Night, and it was one of the last huge things to happen before the New 52 reboot.

I believe that's why it remains such a contentious point for a lot of the anti BMWW crowd. It not only presented BMWW as something that Diana deeply yearns for, almost to magical levels that it even snapped her out of the black ring control, but the story was written by Greg Ruca who's widely accepted as one of the best modern WW writers, and beautifully illustrated by Nicola Scott. The same team that created two of the most well received WW runs.

JLA #90 is much easier to write off compared to Blackest Night, and that's why I think it endured a lot better. Beside, in my opinion I much prefer the lead up to JLA #90 rather than the pay-off we ended up getting.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:22 pm

I think Obisian Age did some of the best BMWW. Bruce breaking the spell and saving Diana. Diana nursing Bruce through the time sickness. Then fighting and dying together in battle, holding hands as they died. And the kiss before dying. All really good BMWW. Very subtle build up, passion, flirting and emotional payoff. Then it fizzled in the issues after. That story really showed the potential between the characters and really showed them as equals, both characters benefiting from working together.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:24 pm

I totally agree. The build up during Obsidian Age and the issues preceding JLA #90 are all much better than the issue itself. JLA #90 is good, if not a bit too ugly. The fact that it ended by breaking things off, and it went about it by doing the "both sides agreed it's a bad idea for BS reasons" is what puts a damper on the entire thing in terms of its legacy. JLA #90 is a big issue for BMWW, but I don't think it's as enduring as the BN: WW story because of how it ended.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:19 pm

I took from JLA #90 that Wonder Woman got cold feet, because their relationship could signify so much for both of them, and then played it off as if the visions had been terrible, with Batman buying the lie out of respect, but there being a door open left because of how great it can be.

What i like about JLA #90 is how the visions examined their romance weighting both the good and the bad outcomes without any compromises, showing that even when it's good there's some bad there, and even when it's bad there's also a lot of good. It'd never be an easy relationship, but it'd also be a great one no matter what, that it'd mean so much for the both of them. It's a very bitter-sweet story.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:41 pm

Sure, taken on its own, JLA #90 has a lot of depth and it's a great look at what BMWW could mean for both Diana and Bruce. The issue is that it left things too open ended and ambiguous to mean anything in the future. It could easily mean a lot had DC actually wanted it too, but it also gave them a convenient way to write BMWW off as simply something that shouldn't be attempted.

I agree with you on your interpretation of what the issue was trying to say about Diana and Bruce. In fact I firmly believe that Greg Rucka's Blackest Night tie-in is a call back and a direct continuation of how JLA #90 left things off between Diana and Bruce. However, that too was pretty ambiguous and left to the reader's own interpretation, which is why the one point most detractors harp on is how there was no reason for Bruce to be the one to snap Diana out of the ring's control, ignoring the heavily implied ties to JLA #90.

We live at a time in comics where unless things are explicitly spelled out and showed, they're liable to be written off either by clueless readers or those who dislike the idea. BMWW's high brow approach to romance and insistence on nuance is both a curse and a blessing. It's the reason why many of us love the relationship, but it also means that the lack of explicit sexual moments and simple dialogue expositing how the relationship works makes BMWW easy to write off as something that's not intended to be serious.

If you look at DC you'll notice how the ships that tend to prosper are the ones that are the most explicit and basic. That's why I think BN: WW's more direct approach to showcasing BMWW has made it a lot more enduring than JLA #90, even though that one straight up showed us WonderBat Kids, but it was all what if's that ultimately meant nothing.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:23 pm

I like how JLA #90 explored any possibility that people might put as an imposition against the pairing.

Wonder Woman being immortal and Batman being a mortal.
Batman and Wonder Woman raising their kids in a place like Gotham and what that might do to them.
Wonder Woman not being able to fit among Batman's high-society functions.
Batman not being able to fit among Wonder Woman's gods reunions.
Batman being thrust in Wonder Woman's conflicts against mythical creatures.
Wonder Woman being thrust in Batman's battles with the Joker.
Batman and Wonder Woman not being able to conceive kids because "muh clay".

And despite all these possibilities being well-thought reasons for them not to be together, the issue showed that even in such scenarios they'd be able to make it work. There would be something in each of these scenarios that would make the pairing worth the attempt.
For example the scenario where their children grow up in Gotham to be the new Batmen and, of course, just as hardened. There's that bit where the son reminds his sister that mom is waiting them back at home for diner showing us that they wouldn't end up like Bruce. They'd be able to retain their humanity despite it all.
Or the scenario where Batman and Wonder Woman are unable to have children, but are still glad about being a couple and all their accomplishments as heroes, and that being enough.
Or even the scenarios where they head to their certain doom, be it in Wonder Woman's battles against mythical creatures or Batman's battles against the Joker, that they go into these battles still very much loving and supporting each other until end.
Or the scenario where they get to grow old together, despite Wonder Woman never really aging. They still grateful for all the time they were granted together, only wishing they could have even more.
In every scenario people can think of, it'd work.

That's the biggest reason why i love the issue. I only wish they could explore the dumb idea that Wonder Woman having powers would put a damper in things, because hurr durr sex, just to shut up those people, but that would have been tacky as hell. I even like the meta-idea that the only reason the romance didn't happen was because they, as in DC, were afraid of exploring it, with Bruce and Diana being a stand-in for editors.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:59 pm

Still JLA#90 is superior to the crappy Batman Annual 2 that showed the what if for Batcat. It hasn't been much but the nuggets we have gotten with BMWW have been pretty good. I wish more people appreciated Liam Sharp's BMWW mini. But so many just don't like subtle or want to give relationships time and BMWW doesn't work as a quick romance.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:16 am

DaisyJane wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:59 pm
Still JLA#90 is superior to the crappy Batman Annual 2 that showed the what if for Batcat. It hasn't been much but the nuggets we have gotten with BMWW have been pretty good. I wish more people appreciated Liam Sharp's BMWW mini. But so many just don't like subtle or want to give relationships time and BMWW doesn't work as a quick romance.
True. WonderBat is something to be cultivated and not simply stuck together, as most of the readership needs to have it spelled out for them that these two connect amazingly together, but so many people won't take the time to do any actual character analysis to validate it for themselves.
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Re: WonderBat on the DCU top 10 romances

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Harley and Joker ranking high on a romance list makes me cringe for society.
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