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CrazyPhenom
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:25 pm

Yes. I never said he enforces his will to every human on earth. Jus that he enforces his will on others. Good luck using a gun when he is around. He dont like it so you dont get to use it. I mean he has a set of rules for in gotham behaviour.

That they failed. And all they had left was their humanity, so they turned to doing human things, like their fathers. KC's ending is a positive in a bad scenario. This is why Waid keeps dissing fauxmance as somethig that shouldnt happen.
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:46 pm

Funny you should say that about Batman, as this very thing was just discussed in the last couple of Green Lanterns issues, where Jessica Cruz and Simon Baz teamed up with Batman in Gotham. Of course Bruce took issue with Simon carrying a gun, but he didn't take it away from him or force him to throw it away. However, by the end of the story, let's say Batman managed to teach Simon a listen about depending on guns. So that's actually a pretty great example of how I believe Batman thinks and behaves.

If the point of KC was that humanity is what mattered by the end, why did the story need to end on Diana and Superman making a bunch of babies ? I mean I guess that's a human thing to do, but the idea of the two hooking because they're both immortals so they can avoid the human feeling of loss, and can produce super non-human babies seems to go against the moral of the story.
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:52 pm

I just picked Kingdom Come because it was an easy target but the attendance to have batman be a control freak is prevalent and I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of trying to paint Batman as this skeavy bastard for trying his best to minimize the damage the JLA could do and some time it goes as far as to portray him as a fascist if anything batman is an anarchist a man always against the state and he doesn't go around enforcing his will he goes around enforcing the law their is a difference and he never crosses the line that exist between him and the state(represented by Jim Gordon). Batman operates in Gotham under Jim's blessing if Jim wanted to he could hunt him down(if he would catch him is another matter) and paint him as a criminal but he allows him to operate because he trust him no other reason.
The same trust doesn't seem to exist between Batman and the JLA and the reason for that really depends on the writer but at the end of the day batman is usually painted as the Bad guy who lurks in the shadows always envious of the god and Mark Waid is responsible for this idea in part because Tower Of Babel was poorly written, because he clearly has a bias for one side of the ideological spectrum. Both sides have valid arguments(damn its Civil War all over again)(DC seems to want to turn Batman into Prometheus stealing fire from the gods)

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ThatOneGuy
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:00 pm

By the way the Idea that Batman enforces his will on others especially other heroes in Gotham is an unnecessary addition to his character I feel I can understand not wanting to operate with them in Gotham but the idea that he cares about what they do that much always strikes me as dumb especially seeing that he doesn't even care that much about what the GCPD does hell in The Dark Knight Returns Gordon shoots and kills a teenage mutant leader and batman didn't do sh*t because it isn't his place to speak pure and simple(plus he trust Gordon) Batman enforces the law nothing else and whenever I see writers writing him like an autistic man-child I know that they know nothing about the character.
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CrazyPhenom
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:04 pm

Or very simply Batman cant make Simon drop his gun. If he could he would. Batman himself used a gun. That doesnt mean he suddenly changed his mind, he adapted to the situation. And you probably realize that if we play the example game. Imma easily gonna win. Brother Eye.

Remember the glasses scene at the end? The transformation back to Clark Kent. After everthing that happened thats all its left. Hence the reference to Lois at the diner (I still hate that Batman orders well done). Its a result, but not necessarily a good one.
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CrazyPhenom
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:06 pm

Didnt ToB wrap up with Supes giving Batsy kryptonite? Admitting he was right to do what he did?
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:39 pm

ThatOneGuy wrote:Image
I liked this panel, a lot of emotion being shown to Bruce here from Diana. Shows how close their relationship was and how much Bruce meant to Diana.
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Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:58 pm

I think if Batman wanted to force Simon to drop the gun he would've certainly done something about it. Don't forget that he's the guy who routinely punches Green Lanterns like Hal and Guy, and is never intimidated by people with powers. However Batman would never do that, but if he wanted to he could've just kicked Simon out of Gotham, as he's the one who invited him in the first place and it's his city. The fact remains that he didn't, and actually used the opportunity to inspire Simon to let go of the gun of his own volition. Brother Eye was used to spy on super humans so that they don't do anything that could endangers lives. That speaks to Bruce's paranoia and trust issues, not unlike the Tower of Babel incident. It's not really an example of Bruce enforcing his will on people.

I still don't see how the SMWW angle contributed to the message Waid was trying to get across. It's seems to go against it if anything :/
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:16 am

Yeah. He casually punches people. Nice way to handle disagreements. You and I have a different opinion about the Baz thing. But Brother Eye, are you really gonna justify that? So that is not the work of a control freak? So who decides when they have sone something wrong? Batman. What happens if they do? Batman does something he sees fit. Sure, it has nothing to do with forcing his will. Look at what you are trying to justify for a second. A massive system that was built by and was supposed to answer to one man. So he can correct the behaviour as he sees fit.

It fits the progression of the story. As I said before the ending still is a bad scenario, just made a little better. Hence the Lois reference, hence why Waid keeps saying that fauxmance along with the rest of the story are example of things that shouldnt happen.
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:50 am

I'm not really sure what's the argument is about anymore. I'm not defending Bruce's people's skills, nor am I claiming that his usage of Brother Eye wasn't a massive breach of trust and ethics, I just disagree about the issue that the use of Brother Eye presented. All heroes use their own judgement to decide when someone is doing something wrong and needs to be stopped, that's nothing unique to Batman. Brother Eye was used to spy on meta humans, so that Batman doesn't get betrayed once again by people with super powers, due to his own lack of any innate abilities to combat that kind of meta human threat. The process of stopping bad things remains the same however, as Brother Eye doesn't give Bruce the ability to shut down activities before they happen. It does however allow him to respond to stuff he otherwise wouldn't have known about. There's an element of control to it that's for sure, but it's not anything Superheroes don't regularly do. Kind of like how Superman uses his super senses to detect trouble everywhere on the planet. The issue with Brother Eye is that it was directed at Batman's friends and colleagues, hence the problem of it being a breach of trust and how Batman's paranoia always leads to trouble. It's a form of control yeah but if you're gonna call that "enforcing his own will" as if he was a fascist, then by that definition every other Superhero does the same thing too, they only use their eyes or other senses instead of a giant satellite.

Maybe I'll have to re-read Kingdom Come again, because when I read it originally the ending kind of left me scratching my head, as I didn't see the point of it given the supposed message of the book. Although having to go through that crappy SMWW plot again will be tough.
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CrazyPhenom
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:27 am

It is enforcing his own will. You are the one who uses tags like facist. You might not like the sound of it. And lets not pretend that the level of control Batman demands is the same as your run of the mill hero. Or his methods are similar. You keep getting stuck on this facist tag you came up with. For exampl he enforces his will on gothams underwolrd thru intimidation and with physical methods. That is wildy differrent from stopping crime the regular hero way.
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:13 am

Well....yeah I'm kind of stuck on the word fascist. Saying that someone is "enforcing his own will on people" sounds like the person is actively taking people's freedom away from them......like a fascist. That's why I'm explaining that in my opinion, I don't think Batman ever goes that far, and if you gonna say that Batman's methods qualifies as him enforcing his will on people, I think the same thing can be said for every other hero. Batman uses intimidation and physical methods, but that's only because Gotham is different than other places, and given Batman's lack of powers he requires a different approach. The whole thing about him intimidating criminals is more about them knowing that Batman is out there and that he'll come for them if they commit a crime, not unlike knowing that the Police are out there patrolling the city. All superheroes use physical methods too, even Wonder Woman.

So despite Batman's different approach, the end result is not unlike what Superman or other Superheroes do. Even criminals in Metropolis are intimidated by Superman's presence. Batman has to occasionally rough up and scare some thugs, because he can't shoot lasers out of his eyes to keep them in line, but at the end of the day the results are the same. That's kind of the whole idea about Batman, is that despite how unsavory his methods might seem to be at first sight, that at the end of the day he's just as heroic as the other Superheroes, and that's why people like Superman and Wonder Woman grow to respect him.
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:13 am

Brother Eye supposed to show Bruce going too far in his need for control and giving in to his paranoia. It was all a set up to Max Lord and Infinite Crisis and breaking apart the Trinity. Afterward Bruce spent a year basically getting his soul back. So Batman does walk a fine line of wanting to force his will on others and just seeking justice. As long as his will matches the law he stays okay.
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:17 am

Every good character has their flaws and failings, and that is one of Batman's.
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:43 am

Batman has a failing!?!?!?! My little mind is blown!! :( lol.
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:15 am

Believe me I'm not trying to defend Bruce's flaws, it's just that the faults I perceived from his more extreme actions like building Brother Eye speak to different issues than his need for control. Yeah he's a bit controlling but never to the extent of what I'd call enforcing his will on others. That actually was the big conflict between Bruce and Jason in Under the Red Hood, when Jason said that the only way to combat crime in Gotham is to directly take control of the criminal organizations, but Bruce refused that. I guess the issue here is that you guys are using the "enforce his own will" bit in a broader way than I would. There are different levels of control, and all heroes exhibit various levels of controlling behaviors, with outright taking the choice away from people and enforcing one's own will as the extreme that I don't believe any hero in the mainstream comics ever got to. That's the kind of stuff that Red Son, Injustice or the Justice Lords showed.
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CrazyPhenom
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:25 am

Or you are overreacting to a phrase?
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:28 am

Its not necessarily a method of enforcing his will. It was merely Bruce acting in his usual neurotic, overly paranoid ways.
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Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:43 am

CrazyPhenom wrote:QR_BBPOST Or you are overreacting to a phrase?
Yeah I do tend to get hung up on words sometimes :P Looking back on the discussion, the whole thing does seem a little bit silly to argue over. I guess I need to remember that not everyone define things the same way I do.
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Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:03 pm

Looks, like I´ve missed a very heated discussion. What were you talking about exactly? Batman being a jerk? Huh, never been a fan of those storiers... Infinite Crisis and Brother Eye sucked from what I remember. Always felt like Geoff Johns read Tower of Babel and thought "Bat-God" wasn´t deconstructed enough as a character. But hey, it lead to Grant Morrisons Batman eventually. But then came Flashpoint and the New 52... bottom line, Johns should stay the hell away from stories about Bruce.

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Last edited by Ghost13 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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