Wonderbat Blues

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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:51 pm

DaisyJane wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:13 am
Speaking of Wonderbat Blues I think that this forum is pretty much dying along with DC comics (and the comic book industry in general). Kinda makes me sad.
I try to do my part whenever I can, but the fact is there's simply nothing interesting to discuss regarding DC these days so it's hard to get any real conversation going around here. Still I'm not going anywhere, so hopefully we'll see the forum getting lively once more.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:07 pm

ARB wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:51 pm
DaisyJane wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:13 am
Speaking of Wonderbat Blues I think that this forum is pretty much dying along with DC comics (and the comic book industry in general). Kinda makes me sad.
I try to do my part whenever I can, but the fact is there's simply nothing interesting to discuss regarding DC these days so it's hard to get any real conversation going around here. Still I'm not going anywhere, so hopefully we'll see the forum getting lively once more.
I concur. Very little really happening in Rebirth, as that line seems to be dying a slow and miserable death. I've simply been trying to busy myself by writing more. But, we don't have to let the forum die, surely there must be something going on in all the many running titles that is a point of interest...
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:29 pm

I know that things seem dire, specially with how bad DC currently is on the publishing and animation sides. Still regarding ships i feel that things like SMWW, Batcat, and even Wondertrev are with their days numbers. SMWW died an ugly death. DC pushed and pushed it big but all they managed was make people hate it. Same goes for Batcat with Tom King's run. We're still going to suffer a bit from it in the coming year thank to King's Batman/Catwoman mini, but after it i think that DC will try to distance a bit from it. Specially if word of mouth regarding the mini get bad. Wondertrev will remain alive until the release of Wonder Woman 84. It has been already confirmed that Trevor won't return anymore for any possible sequel. Without the movies to sustain the pairing, Trevor will just fall to the wayside as usual.

And this is me, but i feel that the people that used to have SMWW as their default pairing are being phased out. You've what? Frank Miller? Jim Lee? They're fossils. Now you've more and more people that grew up with the DCAU getting into the business. Like Scott Snyder, Gene Luen Yang, and so on. Eventually there won't be anyone anymore to hold them back from doing what they want (ie: the fossils).

So i'm faithful that given time BMWW will end up happening more and more. Until then we just have to weather through these stormy days.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:32 am

I mean, have you guys heard of the predictions about how AT&T might actually shut down their DC publishing business ? In a couple of years the only DC content we might get would be digital comics and other related media like tv shows, animation, and movies. No more printed comics. It sounds like AT&T will pretty much plunder DC for its IP's, make the money they spent on the acquisition back, and then close everything down. Bleak stuff. I can't believe that the last things that DC is fighting for when it's at death's door, is f***ing SMWW and BatCat.

SMWW ruined Superman, Wonder Woman, and arguably the entire N52 line. Now we have Tom King running Batman into the ground with BatCat, and DC seems to have learned nothing from their N52 failures. It's just bizarre. How can a company of this size and pedigree, and yet lack any sense of self preservation ? This obviously goes beyond BMWW, but to tie things back, I do agree that both SMWW and even BatCat are both in a very unenviable position. The strongest push for both coincided with a sharp decline in DC's work, and is even threatening to ruin the company all together.

My only fear is that when the time comes for BMWW to finally happen, not only will no one be left to care, but that no one competent will be left to write it. No use counting your chickens before they hatch though. King's trash will keep moving forward for at least another year, so we still have ways to go before we see BMWW potentially happening.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:54 am

ARB wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:32 am
I mean, have you guys heard of the predictions about how AT&T might actually shut down their DC publishing business ? In a couple of years the only DC content we might get would be digital comics and other related media like tv shows, animation, and movies. No more printed comics. It sounds like AT&T will pretty much plunder DC for its IP's, make the money they spent on the acquisition back, and then close everything down. Bleak stuff. I can't believe that the last things that DC is fighting for when it's at death's door, is f***ing SMWW and BatCat.
I hadn't heard that. Is the situation really that dire?
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:06 pm

The_GD_Patman wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:54 am
I hadn't heard that. Is the situation really that dire?
It's all hearsay at this point, but you be the judge.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robsalkowi ... rnermedia/
AT&T—now the parent company of WarnerMedia and its divisions, including DC Comics (previously known as DC Entertainment), HBO, Turner, and Warner Bros.—does not seem terribly interested in being in the comic book publishing business. It’s telling that in a long profile of AT&T CEO John Stankey this morning in Variety, DC was one of the only WarnerMedia brands that was not mentioned. To the extent that DC matters at all in the company’s future, it’s as a source of owned IP for other media channels and as a lifestyle brand to serve as an ambassador to geek culture.

In terms of pure economics, this makes sense. The entire comics publishing business in the U.S., including periodicals, digital and trade, adds up to around $1.1 billion, according to 2018 estimates by industry analyst ICv2. On a good month, about 35% of the revenue from the direct market goes to DC, along with a chunk of trade book sales for perennial titles like Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. That wasn’t ever very much in the Time Warner days, and it’s a smaller drop in an even bigger ocean following the AT&T acquisition.
It's all merely speculations based on what AT&T might do with their new found control over DC and its IP's, but things are not looking exactly bright. I personally don't believe DC will be outright canned, but judging by all the cancelled imprints and books that DC announced recently, I don't think that in a few years we will see anything more than 20 DC comics being published. Most likely containing the essentials like Batman, WW, Superman, Flash, GL, and JL. It's both sad and funny that when DC is obviously in such dire straits, and they're still trying to bank on Tom King and his BatCat, or try and cash in on ol' Frankie's Millerverse.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:52 pm

That's some depressing news, specially because if there was something that used to bother DC, and i'm not talking about Warner Bros as a whole, but DC itself, was that there wasn't a SMWW presence in animation. When it came to animation you had BMWW. So that's why with the New 52 relaunch they went so hard on pushing SMWW on their animated movies over and over again, and even in cartoons with Justice League Action! - and you even have the cartoon producers and writers going on record how the pairing came as an imposition on them and how even that they'd rather work on BMWW. So that means that if AT&T close DC's doors, what you'll have left will only be the damn animated movies that still reminiscence about the ill received SMWW romance. That will be the last impression DC will leave as their door closes. Not that the past decade of comics were any different.
Well, there is the DCAU, but that's so old now, and the the DCEU, but even that... whatever.

I hope it's just hearsay. And seriously, will someone fire Dan Didio already?
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:17 am

ARB wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:06 pm
The_GD_Patman wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:54 am
I hadn't heard that. Is the situation really that dire?
It's all hearsay at this point, but you be the judge.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robsalkowi ... rnermedia/
AT&T—now the parent company of WarnerMedia and its divisions, including DC Comics (previously known as DC Entertainment), HBO, Turner, and Warner Bros.—does not seem terribly interested in being in the comic book publishing business. It’s telling that in a long profile of AT&T CEO John Stankey this morning in Variety, DC was one of the only WarnerMedia brands that was not mentioned. To the extent that DC matters at all in the company’s future, it’s as a source of owned IP for other media channels and as a lifestyle brand to serve as an ambassador to geek culture.

In terms of pure economics, this makes sense. The entire comics publishing business in the U.S., including periodicals, digital and trade, adds up to around $1.1 billion, according to 2018 estimates by industry analyst ICv2. On a good month, about 35% of the revenue from the direct market goes to DC, along with a chunk of trade book sales for perennial titles like Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. That wasn’t ever very much in the Time Warner days, and it’s a smaller drop in an even bigger ocean following the AT&T acquisition.
It's all merely speculations based on what AT&T might do with their new found control over DC and its IP's, but things are not looking exactly bright. I personally don't believe DC will be outright canned, but judging by all the cancelled imprints and books that DC announced recently, I don't think that in a few years we will see anything more than 20 DC comics being published. Most likely containing the essentials like Batman, WW, Superman, Flash, GL, and JL. It's both sad and funny that when DC is obviously in such dire straits, and they're still trying to bank on Tom King and his BatCat, or try and cash in on ol' Frankie's Millerverse.
Ah gotcha. I have to say, judging be the sound thumping DC has laid onto Marvel in terms of actual books sold (surprising that they simply cannot parlay that movie success into comic sales), that some kind of revamped model is more likely than a whole sale shutdown. Your estimation of 20 ongoing series seems about right, though if past trends are indicative of anything, that will likely jump after the first 6 or so profitable quarters. It's really a terrible thing that DC is only consistent in taking away the wrong lessons from every failure the suffer across all mediums.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:15 pm

The_GD_Patman wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:17 am
Ah gotcha. I have to say, judging be the sound thumping DC has laid onto Marvel in terms of actual books sold (surprising that they simply cannot parlay that movie success into comic sales), that some kind of revamped model is more likely than a whole sale shutdown. Your estimation of 20 ongoing series seems about right, though if past trends are indicative of anything, that will likely jump after the first 6 or so profitable quarters. It's really a terrible thing that DC is only consistent in taking away the wrong lessons from every failure the suffer across all mediums.
The sound thumping that DC has been laying onto Marvel is not as one sided as you might think. It's true that DC has consistently more books in the top ten compared to Marvel, but Marvel overall has more books in the market compared to DC. That results in Marvel constantly having a bigger share of the comic book market compared to DC, and in recent months they've even managed to grab more spots in the top ten list with books like Immortal Hulk, Amazing Spider-Man, and X-Men. DC is not actually doing better than Marvel, despite them having more top selling books, and that was true even at the near the start of Rebirth when DC looked like an unstoppable juggernaut. Now though DC has been going from one low to the next, while Marvel has been very slowly improving.

I don't know if you've heard anything about the squabble that Rob Liefeld is having with DC, but the guy has gone on record saying that DC will start licencing its properties in a couple of years. Now that could just be simple pettiness talking here, but more and more insiders are starting to talk about the dire situation that DC is in right now. More and more this picture of DC being on the verge of collapsing becomes clearer. The reports, the failing sales, and the constant panicked announcements from DC are all pointing towards how precarious DC's position is right now. Not to mention Didio apparently throwing a fit at SDCC over people not buying new DC comics.

I don't believe there's a chance of DC actually being shut down. Both DC and Marvel are long standing American institutions that nobody would dare be the one known for closing them down. I do however think that DC might get its business scaled down into irrelevancy, because to companies like WB and AT&T it's pretty irrelevant as it is. I'm just puzzled by the direction that DC is headed in even with all the risks they're facing right now. I knew Rebirth was a terrible direction for the comics from the get go, even when DC was riding high on their initial success and the public support they got for the initiative. Seeing now where things are heading, I'm honestly conflicted on whether I should feel vindicated for Rebirth's failure, or sad to witness what might be the end of the comic book universe I grew up loving.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:58 pm

I think it's just a sign of comics in general dying. Marvel especially seems to believe that they can stave off the grim reaper of comic books with the MCU but after Endgame, enthusiasm for the Marvel films has died down considerably among the general public especially given the...uh, unusual choices Marvel is making with their movie universe going forward. Their comics are almost completely in the hands of hacks at this point, so if their cinematic cash cow comes crashing down, it's going to be hard to fight for their continued existence in front of Papa Disney, unless their foray into video games ends up as another cash cow and not just a one-off successful franchise in Spider-Man, in which case they might still survive. And while I enjoy some Marvel animated films, they seem to have almost completely given up on that form of media.

DC is even worse off in that they are a headless chicken that doesn't know what the fuck they're doing. Their death knell begun ever since The Death and Return of Superman, from which point onwards they've been doing everything possible to piss off their increasingly shrinking fanbase. When they try to pander to one segment, they end up alienating another. For example, the New 52, which was done mainly to fix the godawful clusterfuck that was the Superman comics at the time (and the Wonder Woman comics to a minor extent too) but ended up screwing over pretty much every other corner of the DC Universe (and DC managed to piss off even the New 52 fans with their braindead writing decisions later down the line) save for Batman and Green Lantern, both of which ended up with continuity issues which persist to this day and were only exacerbated with time.

I think both DC and Marvel will probably get closed down in a couple of decades, if not sooner, and the characters and the universes themselves will become playthings to be whored out by Disney/Warner Bros. as seen fit. Movies, animation, TV, games, etc, is where it will be at. This might be both good and bad, in a manner of speaking.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:52 am

Lets hope they lease out the characters to a company like shonen jump. Imagine the guy who writes my hero acadamia using those characters. Or Oda just doing a crossover with them. That would be cool if they are smart.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:01 am

ARB wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:15 pm
The sound thumping that DC has been laying onto Marvel is not as one sided as you might think. It's true that DC has consistently more books in the top ten compared to Marvel, but Marvel overall has more books in the market compared to DC. That results in Marvel constantly having a bigger share of the comic book market compared to DC, and in recent months they've even managed to grab more spots in the top ten list with books like Immortal Hulk, Amazing Spider-Man, and X-Men. DC is not actually doing better than Marvel, despite them having more top selling books, and that was true even at the near the start of Rebirth when DC looked like an unstoppable juggernaut. Now though DC has been going from one low to the next, while Marvel has been very slowly improving.
See as I'd come to understand it, while what you say about Marvel producing more product (and thus having a bigger stake) is true, they were also flooding the market with issues of things that don't necessarily sell. So they seemingly implemented a sales model based on quantity to see a profitable return that has not really helped to move any of these books in a meaningful way. This year could be different, as I have now really tracked the sum total of the trends up to now since the end of last year. But, the reports I saw from 2016 to now have suggested that DC's more decisive moves have helped them actually sell more per month than Marvel. But, what you've said about Hulk, X-Men, and Spidey is right and this year could be a turn back toward the top for them.
ARB wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:15 pm
I don't know if you've heard anything about the squabble that Rob Liefeld is having with DC, but the guy has gone on record saying that DC will start licencing its properties in a couple of years. Now that could just be simple pettiness talking here, but more and more insiders are starting to talk about the dire situation that DC is in right now. More and more this picture of DC being on the verge of collapsing becomes clearer. The reports, the failing sales, and the constant panicked announcements from DC are all pointing towards how precarious DC's position is right now. Not to mention Didio apparently throwing a fit at SDCC over people not buying new DC comics.
Liefeld is someone I have trouble taking with a fully robust amount of credibility. He always seems to be moving from one thing pissing him off to the next, and thus is always speaking from a place with whatever ax he is presently grinding firmly in hand. DiDio has been well past his prime since The New 52. How he survived that debacle I still don't know.
ARB wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:15 pm
I don't believe there's a chance of DC actually being shut down. Both DC and Marvel are long standing American institutions that nobody would dare be the one known for closing them down. I do however think that DC might get its business scaled down into irrelevancy, because to companies like WB and AT&T it's pretty irrelevant as it is. I'm just puzzled by the direction that DC is headed in even with all the risks they're facing right now. I knew Rebirth was a terrible direction for the comics from the get go, even when DC was riding high on their initial success and the public support they got for the initiative. Seeing now where things are heading, I'm honestly conflicted on whether I should feel vindicated for Rebirth's failure, or sad to witness what might be the end of the comic book universe I grew up loving.
Corporate oversight or not, I'm not sure how much DC will suffer. AT&T has to know how profitable DC has been and could be with better attention and direction, as geek culture has hit a Renaissance as of late. I can't see them not wanting to try to maintain whatever hold DC has in that arena. But as far as the rest, you've hit on something most agreeable. Lee and DiDio as the creative mastheads are an oddity to me, as they seem highly detached from sustainable and sound creative directions. They wanted to modernize with the N52, but they used details and characterizations the reeked of 90's level troupes and visuals while seeing a good 80% of the their titles suffer declines in quality for the sake of "experimentation" (all while still holding to a seemingly archaic formula). They (of course) took the wrong lesson away from this failure and went in the opposite direction for the full on pseudo-nostalgia we've been getting in Rebirth. But, they've again curiously chosen to push revisionist points and non-event events and filler in lieu of making anything progress into some situation that could see things return to N52 level disinterest. Ironically, the narrative safety has clearly backfired, and the criticism has reflected the frustrations with the line (even if it was moving issues).

I get that comic fans can be fickle, but I can't recall seeing any company make such an ongoing series of misread cues from their audience in recent times, all while actually not amending their methods to see anything like their desired results.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:48 am

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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:48 pm

Heh, weird smirk which book is this from?
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:17 pm

This is from the latest Bats/Supes issue. Bruce and Diana have the souls of warriors so sparring fits them very much as characters.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:58 pm



Guess who got # One?!

IDK, why that made me so happy. WatchMojo lists aren't even all that great but I am still glad we won for some reason.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:53 pm

As BMWW shippers we take joy where we can.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:58 pm

DaisyJane wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:53 pm
As BMWW shippers we take joy where we can.
Truer words have never been said.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:37 pm

Yup. People still know that Diana is it for Bruce and vice versa.
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Re: Wonderbat Blues

Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:04 pm

I don't like TT GO but I love this.

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Last edited by BatsGeek on Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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