Everything wrong with BatCat

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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:37 am

ThatOneGuy wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:51 pm
I think BatCat is in decline as it is, the only thing that can save it is King forcing them married in the tail end of his run which is VERY unlikely. I think the next writer will just ignore her and go back to a more heroic Batman. It's just surviving the next couple of years that will be tough not just Kings run but the Crisis in direction DC seems to be having right now but I think things will bounce back
Agreed. And on the plus side, Tom Taylor is doing the annual this year. If it goes over well, hopefully he gets a full fledged run.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:37 pm

The_GD_Patman wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:12 pm
You've nailed down a lot of truth there my friend. But, I think all of this still points to an eventual death of the BatCat pairing. It's simply too incoherent to be maintained, and it's going to run out of avenues here really quick.
They ran out of ideas and avenues to justify the ship a long time ago, that's why the stopped caring about how to make sense of it, and decided to just double down on it because the majority of readers support it. That's the issue here. Logic and good storytelling are not a factor here, which is why I worry it's already too late to fix things. I don't doubt that the ship will decline, and we will most likely see DC try another relationship involving Bruce at some point, but but at this point anything other than BatCat will be seen as a place holder and will never get a fair chance to gain any momentum.

I fear that we're going into a cycle, where we get a period of BatCat free Batman stories, until the demand reaches a certain point where DC caves in and we get another Tom King situation, rinse and repeat. Anything else would bring too much heat on DC, and nobody is brave enough to actually explore and confront the various issue with BatCat. Even Snyder, who clearly doesn't care much for Catwoman, seemed to have rolled over and accepted the reality, if his upcoming Batman Who Laughs book is anything to go by. I really hope you're right, but my faith in DC and comics in general is too shaken for me to have any real hope of things turning around.
wrote: Agreed. And on the plus side, Tom Taylor is doing the annual this year. If it goes over well, hopefully he gets a full fledged run.
Is that so ? I knew Tom Taylor was writing a Batman story, but I didn't know it was the Annual. That seems like a big thing. If King didn't have almost half of his run still left to go, I would've assumed DC was preparing Taylor to take over the book. Perhaps after Annual 2, DC is scared King will once again send his fanfic scripts to the art team.
ThatOneGuy wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:51 pm
I think BatCat is in decline as it is, the only thing that can save it is King forcing them married in the tail end of his run which is VERY unlikely. I think the next writer will just ignore her and go back to a more heroic Batman. It's just surviving the next couple of years that will be tough not just Kings run but the Crisis in direction DC seems to be having right now but I think things will bounce back
While I agree that BatCat is on a decline, and if history is anything to go by, Catwoman will soon once again fade into obscurity once DC is no longer pursuing BatCat anymore, that still doesn't mean Batman will bounce back. King has normalized the idea of Batman as a hypocrite, as a weak willed man child dependent on Catwoman's love, and these things won't go away easily. What's more, BatCat is not only never questioned by most readers, it's seen as the "default" option for Bruce, the one that naturally makes the most sense.

As I mentioned before, even Snyder is getting in on it. According to him, his upcoming "Batman Who Laughs" book opens up with Bruce finding the dead body of an alternate version of himself who was married to Catwoman and had a kid. Now tell me if that's not just Tom King talking into Snyder's ear. For his entire run Snyder never cared for Catwoman, and he even made Bruce an amnesiac just to get him back with Julie Madison, and yet he's now defaulting to a BatCat future simply because that's what's expected.

That's what I mean about the normalization that King has been doing with his run. That's why even if Catwoman went dormant for a few years, her stench will still hang around long after she leaves, making it harder for anything new to happen. This is why I always emphasize the importance of introducing newer love interests for Bruce, if only to prevent Catwoman from being the only viable option. The problem is, that would require a writer with a strong conviction, and for DC to get their heads out of their asses. Considering how Paul Dini couldn't do it, and he made his attempt more than ten years ago, I don't see how another writer could succeed now after what King's done to Batman.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:13 am

I think Snyder is just using an Earth 2 version of Batman, probably kind of an homage. He is always rather subtle with pairings so I wouldn't expect a lot of Batcat in the storyline. His JL has pretty much been a team book, building friendships while dealing with major events. It is probably the best that Justice League has been since Grant Morrison wrote it back in the late 1990s. I like that Snyder never uses one character to build up another and really gets what makes each character interesting and what each character brings to the team. He really knows how to write a team book.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:46 am

Honestly, i think the fake marriage was the utmost extent the Batcat thing could have reached it. If they had married, that'd be one thing, but the fake out pissed off a lot of people and pretty much cemented the idea that Batcat will never work out. There will always be something in their path to separate them and create angst for one another. Hell, even the Earth 2 versions of them, which is the most fulfilling and happy version of the pairing, ended in tragedy. Batcat has been cemented as a doomed pairing.

Since the readers are also tired of the whole will-they-won't-they thing, i can see a new pairing taking off as long a writer with conviction set it off. Or even if the DCEU movies influence things. Too bad the bombing of the Justice League movie pretty much put the brakes on the Wonderbat thing. But who knows, i still have faith something might come out of it. The Wonder Woman movies won't be able to milk the Wondertrev pairing anymore, and if the Batman new movies end up being a success i can see WB deciding to tie the Wonder Woman and Batman successes. WB will always doubledown on what works. If that happened DC would be pretty much forced to follow ahead.

Still... any new pairing is welcomed. I'd even accept Batman/Harley Quinn at this stage. Imagine if that took off. The way DC is stupid just because they're both big sellers, and maybe thinking that together they might sell even more, i can see DC pretty much milking it for all its worth. Specially with Harley Quinn being a "Batman" character. We all know the editors hate to have Batman paired with any character outside of Gotham.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:36 pm

I haven't heard a word about BatCat in a good while all the hype is dying down I remember King threating her return and I remember reading somewhere that their stories will crossover again as of Catwoman #7. I don't think things will ever pick up back again I think King had his chance and blow it. I think the coming reunion will be lukewarm and nothing will come of it. All things considered, I am kinda interested to see what the madman King does.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:09 pm

That is the good thing about the king mess. Though if bruce was to be paired with someone else how about Nightshade heck they could just nod in unison and they could understand each other both characters from wealth and power how come they never interacted. I think I know why it makes to much sense. Or Katana they worked together before and have similar pain though she lost her husband and children while bruce only his parents could work or Kimio Yoshi the female dr light there could be something there both highly intelligent and arrogant in their fields if they do not want to do Wonderbat. The biggest missed opportunity when Zealot was in DCU you why didnt they let batman interact with them could have been more successful
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:10 pm

The sales of the Batman solo book have been declining since issue 50 too. It's even dipped below 90k. This run has effectively pissed off its devotees and bored its casual hangers on away.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:19 pm

DaisyJane wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:13 am
I think Snyder is just using an Earth 2 version of Batman, probably kind of an homage. He is always rather subtle with pairings so I wouldn't expect a lot of Batcat in the storyline.
That's not the point here. Snyder clearly wanted to show an alternate version of Bruce who's married and had a kid, but there's no reason for him to choose Catwoman other than to meet the expectations that people have at this point. Snyder got a lot of sh** over the Merciless from BatCats from what I've seen on Twitter, so he clearly opted for the safe decision in order not to piss anyone, and worse most likely to show support for Tom King, seeing how much Snyder like to promote that hack's books.

Can you believe that I've seen people claiming that unless you worship BatCat and Catwoman, then you clearly lack any understanding of Batman as a character ? This kind of insanity is the result of DC's utter lack of the minimum competence required to manage a character like Batman. They've worked their damnedest to distort and ruin Batman's character over the last decade or so, until we got to this point where the worst possible version of Batman is seen as the best and the one true to his character, simply because it serves BatCat.

The fact that DC allowed the fan perception of Batman to deteriorate this much means that they have no idea about the damage they've been doing. I know Snyder's BMHL won't have any real shipping in it, but it still reaffirms the idea that not only is BatCat right, but it's also the only acceptable outcome. At a time when I'm hoping to see Batman move away from that, it's disappointing to see Snyder of all people furthering that awful notion in his writing.
ThatOneGuy wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:36 pm
I haven't heard a word about BatCat in a good while all the hype is dying down I remember King threating her return and I remember reading somewhere that their stories will crossover again as of Catwoman #7. I don't think things will ever pick up back again I think King had his chance and blow it. I think the coming reunion will be lukewarm and nothing will come of it. All things considered, I am kinda interested to see what the madman King does.
Based on what I've seen, there are still many people chomping at the bits to see the legendary BatCat reunion, and unless DC's editorial block King from pursuing his shipping, I'm afraid I can't share your optimism. Marriage is the least of my concerns to be frank. I stated more than once before that I was legitimately hoping to see the marriage going through, because that would be a lot worse than separating the two and creating even more demand for the ship.

As things stand now, the blame for the wedding debacle has been placed squarely on Didio's shoulders, with King getting out of it pretty much looking like the victim. Given how insane King is, what I fear the most is him coming up with something ridicules in order to create a situation where other writers can't simply ignore BatCat and introduce other relationships. With King's track record and single minded obsession with Catwoman, this is what expect of him to do by the end of the run, and that's not a good thing.
The_GD_Patman wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:10 pm
The sales of the Batman solo book have been declining since issue 50 too. It's even dipped below 90k. This run has effectively pissed off its devotees and bored its casual hangers on away.
Have they ? From what I've seen the sales remained for the most part around the 90K, which is not that much lower than Batman's usual, to my disappointment. The issue where Nightwing got shot even managed to sell more than a 100K, which is fantastic by the current standards. So any drops in sales are most likely negligible at best, and would be nowhere near enough to convince DC to drop King from the book.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:13 pm

ARB wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Can you believe that I've seen people claiming that unless you worship BatCat and Catwoman, then you clearly lack any understanding of Batman as a character ? This kind of insanity is the result of DC's utter lack of the minimum competence required to manage a character like Batman. They've worked their damnedest to distort and ruin Batman's character over the last decade or so, until we got to this point where the worst possible version of Batman is seen as the best and the one true to his character, simply because it serves BatCat.
I've seen that too. It's a pretty glaring example every time such talk pops up that the individual making use of such arguments confused their understanding (read: opinion) with an objective analysis. It doesn't give such talk any validity, and anyone with a functioning brain should be able to see why the idea of pairing off Batman with someone that lies to him in her best incarnations and outright tries to murder him in her worst, wouldn't be an ideal romantic partner. And while pointing out the illogicality of such talk doesn't do anything to stop it, it's very likely the people saying such things are beyond seeing the folly in their ideas to begin with. And more over, their shouts of canonical preeminence are invalid solely on the grounds that the standard formula for Bat Cat (team up, conflict, separation, repeat) has not, will not, and was never supposed to end happily.
ARB wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Have they ? From what I've seen the sales remained for the most part around the 90K, which is not that much lower than Batman's usual, to my disappointment. The issue where Nightwing got shot even managed to sell more than a 100K, which is fantastic by the current standards. So any drops in sales are most likely negligible at best, and would be nowhere near enough to convince DC to drop King from the book.
Below 90k at all after being consistently over 100k at it's inception is a show of customer disapproval. Publicity stunts aside (shooting Dick was totally another cry for attention in this run), It could be a slow erosion by all the people finally getting bored of the incoherent dialog and filler stories. And let's just say he does reintegrate the burglar into the Batman solo book, how long will the hardcore BatCats stand for them as an unofficial thing now that a wedding has been dangled in front of them before they call for another full scale boycott?

Issue 50 may not have been a case of instant death for this run, but it seems like the whole mess looks pretty terminal to me.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:37 pm

After Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight trilogy, FOX's Gotham series, and Tom King's Batman run everyone sees Batcat as the standard. Batman can't be paired with Poison Ivy or Harley Quinn after DC made them a LGBT couple, since it'd seem as a problematic move that'd displease certain fan groups. This end up leaving Batman with no prominent Bat-related character to be paired with other than Catwoman.
Batgirl? After all the bitching that generated? Forget it. Talia al Ghul is too much of a villain. Nolan's The Dark Knight trilogy and Morrison's Batman run made sure of that.
Julie Madison, Vicki Vale, Silver St. Cloud, and so on aren't really that eye-catching. Zatanna Zatara and Wonder Woman are from other franchises. So that leaves only Catwoman.

The only chance of separating the Batcat is if either DC or WB normalize another pairing for Batman or Catwoman. Say a well-received DCEU movie where Catwoman is paired with another character thus setting up a new shipping fanbase. I wen't with the DCEU, because i feel DC would hardly pair Batman with any other character in canon. Catwoman with another character in her solo book, yes, since it has happened many times. Catwoman, after all, can fool around as much as she wants. But Batman? Dating someone else? Hardly.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:06 am

The only thing that will free batman is turning catwoman into a lesbian they did that. IT was one of the best catwoman books in years and people were scared it will ruined bat/cat forever wish it hand a longer run and show they are better apart than together. Hopefully some one will do it in the future. This goes to show bruce is truly black and white and a decent man which is great but also bad when written by people like king
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:50 am

Lurker nomore wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:06 am
The only thing that will free batman is turning catwoman into a lesbian they did that. IT was one of the best catwoman books in years and people were scared it will ruined bat/cat forever wish it hand a longer run and show they are better apart than together. Hopefully some one will do it in the future. This goes to show bruce is truly black and white and a decent man which is great but also bad when written by people like king
Actually it had her come out as bisexual. I find it hilarious that they think it makes comics more for general and diverse audiences and less for teenage boys for them to make all the hot women in Halloween costumes bisexual. Seriously, I don't know any woman in Gotham who is heterosexual, all of them are bi or lesbian now.
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Re: Everything wrong with BatCat

Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:03 pm

ISAK wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:37 pm
After Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight trilogy, FOX's Gotham series, and Tom King's Batman run everyone sees Batcat as the standard. Batman can't be paired with Poison Ivy or Harley Quinn after DC made them a LGBT couple, since it'd seem as a problematic move that'd displease certain fan groups. This end up leaving Batman with no prominent Bat-related character to be paired with other than Catwoman.
Batgirl? After all the bitching that generated? Forget it. Talia al Ghul is too much of a villain. Nolan's The Dark Knight trilogy and Morrison's Batman run made sure of that.
Julie Madison, Vicki Vale, Silver St. Cloud, and so on aren't really that eye-catching. Zatanna Zatara and Wonder Woman are from other franchises. So that leaves only Catwoman.
That's the real underlying issue here. With the way DC insists on keeping their major DC franchises segregated, especially Batman, that renders any love interest who doesn't strictly operate inside Gotham very difficult to handle. This speaks more to how backward DC is when it comes to handling their characters as opposed to the quality or the potential of a new character getting introduced to Bruce's life. This means that there are very few viable love interests that could be used in place of Catwoman.

This is why I got really excited back when Dini introduced the idea of Zee as a potential new partner for Bruce in his Detective run (around 2007 I believe). I'm sick of Bruce dating villains and repeating the same story beats ad infinitum, especially when those stories never go anywhere. Civilians like Vicki Vale or Silver Cloud are out of the question, as they have very little to relate to the Batman side of Bruce, which comprises around 90% of the character. This only leaves one viable type of character that has yet to be explored in any shape or form, a super heroine, but even that's a shallow pool.

BMWW is all but assured to fail at this point if it ever got the green light, and Zee had her entire history with Bruce expunged when the New 52 started, and even though Tynion brought it back in his Detective run, it went nowhere and was forgotten. Seeing how meticulously DC got rid of every past love interest that Bruce's ever had, all to leave Catwoman uncontested is truly amazing. I've never seen DC so hell bent on a single idea the way they're with BatCat. That's why I roll my eyes every time I see its shippers whining about how DC hates them.
Lurker nomore wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:06 am
The only thing that will free batman is turning catwoman into a lesbian they did that. IT was one of the best catwoman books in years and people were scared it will ruined bat/cat forever wish it hand a longer run and show they are better apart than together. Hopefully some one will do it in the future. This goes to show bruce is truly black and white and a decent man which is great but also bad when written by people like king
They already did that, and yet even that wasn't enough to change the reality. It's quite amazing how not even becoming bisexual managed to deter people from calling for BatCat. This is a time where people latch on any excuse to turn characters gay, even when not warranted, but Catwoman becoming bi caused quite the outrage back it was first revealed. I remember reading someone shrieking about how DC could've made ANY other character bi, but they opted for Catwoman because they hated BatCat.

That whole thing has all but been forgotten now. I rarely see it mentioned ever, even when queer characters in comics are being discussed. That's how desperate people are to forgot it. Catwoman is Batsexual. She simply can't afford to be anything else. She's been around since 1940, and yet DC has failed to define her existence by anything other than her relationship with Batman. Without that people wouldn't know how to look at her, and they know that, and DC knows that as well. So no, changing Catwoman's sexual orientation isn't the way to go.
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