Bat-books Talk

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Re: Bat-books Talk

Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:02 pm

When was the last time Catwoman's thievery was treated as an actual crime ? We've gotten to the point were Catwoman is actively stealing stuff while sleeping with Bruce in the Wayne Manor, and with Alfred's apparent blessings no less, so pray tell how could Bruce be a hypocrite if Catwoman wasn't doing anything wrong to begin with ? To be more accurate, it's not that her thievery is wrong, it's just that she's too awesome to be held accountable for her actions. Beside, it's not like she's killing anyone, am I right ? Don't forget, that Batman only catches Catwoman because she allows him to, or so Tom King says at least. So once again, Batman can't be a hypocrite, because he couldn't stop her even if he wanted to.

There's simply no answer for why Batman's relationship with Catwoman is the way it is. It used to be about Batman seeing the good in her and trying to have her leave her life of crime behind, but that narrative simply can't work anymore. Catwoman can't stop being a thief, it's literally her only character trait, which her entire persona is built around. And yet she can't lean heavily on her thieving side because that complicates her BatCat prospects and we can't have that. So if her character has nowhere to go, the burden will always fall on Batman to explain why the relationship exists or has to stop.

You know how in a relationship, there's a "reacher" and a "settler" (I believe this came from HIMYM) ? Well in comics, if you pair up a terrible character with a much better one, the better character will always have to shoulder any potential damage because the other character simply can't afford it. That's why it will always be Bruce' paranoia, pesky moral code, or even his miserableness that torpedos BatCat, rather than the obvious reason of her being a criminal. As long as DC wants to market Catwoman, BatCat ain't going nowhere, regardless of what that does to Batman's character.

King's obsession with Catwoman is unsettling indeed. The way I see it, he's been pretty much working out his fetishes during his run, and he made no secret that he sees the relationship between himself and his wife in Batman and Catwoman. So you work out the rest from there.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:33 pm

Well, you said it all, can't say I have anything else to add regarding King and Catwoman so let us change the topic.

I recently saw a still of the Superman Red Son movie and I realized that while I don't particularly like the story as it absolves Superman of all his crimes in the end because his "heart" was in the right place but Damn do I love Red Son Batman, probably my favorite Elseworlds version of Batman its like Batman distilled down to his most basic form. Freedom fighter Batman was the best. But then I realized that it has one of the worst Elseworlds Wonder woman Communist Wonder woman was the worst, maybe even worst that KC Wonder woman for at least KC Wonder woman had some agency Red Son Wonder woman was literally just Lady Macbeth.

I would love to see more of Red Son Batman dude was the best. There is a small moment in the book after he captures Commie Wonder woman and lock Superman in the cellar he shows some concern for Wonder woman as she breaks her lasso permanently crippling her it is very slight but I always notice it. Maybe he knew she wasn't truly evil only caught in a bad situation it adds a lot to his character IMO.

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Re: Bat-books Talk

Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:02 am

Yeah it's better we leave it at that. I know my Catwoman tirades can go on for a while if nobody stopped me.

Red Son Batman is probably one of the cooler alternate Batmans out there. I agree that the Red Son story itself is pretty frustrating and not at all great when you think about it, and its treatment of the none-Superman characters especially stands out. Now that I'm writing about, I believe we both had a discussion about Red Son with PirateGhost (may she finds happiness where ever she might be), were we both pretty much agreed that Red Son Wonder Woman was atrocious. I don't know about comparing her to Kingdom Come, because that story makes my blood boil, but Red Son is one of the best examples of how awful Elseworlds stories tend to treat Diana.

Unlike Superman who was raised in a completely different circumstances than his mainstream counterpart, or Batman who's a completely different person, Red Son Wonder Woman is pretty much the same person. She just arrived at a Man's world that had its history altered by Superman's different origin story. The idea that Diana would become a completely different person, going against everything that the Amazons believed and preached, simply because Superman is a different person in this universe is so very insulting to Wonder Woman. If the Red Son Amazons were meant to be different, then the story never bothered to show that. I do love Red Son Diana's design though I'll have to admit. Really dig the colour scheme.

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Back to Red Son Batman. Yeah he's pretty good I think. We didn't get to see much of him in the story overall, but he had a big impact on the story and left a huge impression after he was gone. I liked his ruthlessness, and even as a Russian dissident he still managed to remain true to the character's spirit. He also put an impressive fight against both Superman AND Wonder Woman, and Millar wrote the fights to emphasize Batman's resourcefulness and ruthlessness, which I liked. I agree with you that his fight with Superman is often overlooked in favour of TDKR, who everyone is so eager to reference/copy. His design is also pretty great (which is thankfully not a rarity in Elseworlds Batman costumes). His Bat cowl/Ushanka combo is particularly snazzy I think.

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I believe Red Son Batman appeared in one of the tie-ins for Convergence, where he met Earth 2 Huntress. Never read that, but the idea of exploring Red Son Batman's history is an interesting concept I guess, although personally I'm not very interested in it. I think the mystery of how he came to be the person we saw in Red Son is better to preserve.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:30 pm

Guys, you won't believe this. Tom King has finally done. He revealed Gotham's biggest secret. Gotham doesn't belong to Batman, and it doesn't belong to Bane either. Gotham belongs to.....it belongs to................well you see...
Spoiler: Show
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I think we can all agree that Annual #4 couldn't have been written by King. I'd sooner believe his Mom wrote it, or maybe he payed a ghost writer to do it. THIS is what I meant when I said annual #4 contradicted everything that King has been saying about Batman so far. Issue #82 on the other hand ? Now that's pure Tom King.

Since I don't care about King's garbage run, and none of you should either, I'm not gonna hold back on spoilers.

So the entire issue is pretty much just a fight scene between Bane and the BatCat dynamic duo. Batman declares that this is going to be a fair fight, with no gadgets or outside help, something that Bane proves dumb enough to agree to. Both men start discarding their equipment, Bane with his venom tubes, Batman with his Batsuit and utility belt, and going shirtless the way real men settle their differences. Bane asks about Batman's "Cat", but Bats promises that the Cat won't be interfering. So the fight commences.

Just as the two men are starting to go at it, Cat uses her whip to catch one of Bane's arms. Bane, completely in disbelief, exlaims "YOU SAID NO HELP ?!!", to which Bruce replies that he simply lied.

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With Catwoman at his back, and two hidden Baterangs he snuck on his person, Batman attacks Bane. The dynamic duo brutalize the outnumbered Bane, who's still holding to his honour and fighting both without resorting to any tricks, with Bruce throwing the two Baterangs at him and lodging them in his chest and face respectively. The Baterangs as it turned out were laced with the Super venom that Gotham and Gotham Girl were using. Bruce explains that the reason Bane never used it is that it would've overloaded his system and caused him to die......for whatever reason. So not only did Bruce cheat in this fight, but he also poisoned his opponent lethally.

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Bruce, the great honourable hero that he is, tells Bane that he's been poisoned, and that he's the only person capable of saving him. Bane doesn't respond to this well, and decides to go out swinging instead. Bane makes short work of Bruce, but is then stopped by Catwoman, who seems much more capable of matching the hulking behemoth. Catwoman then tells Bane that he's a poor deluded fool who never realized that Gotham was never Batman's city, but hers. Bane however disagrees, and proceeds to demonstrate how he deals with terrible characters trying to ruin his story.

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This angers Bruce greatly, who jumps Bane from behind and proceeds to slam his face into the ground repeatedly until it turned into a bloody mess. Bruce then tells Bane how he could easily kill him but that he won't, not because of his moral code or because of his vow, but because killing Bane would be merciful and he wants Bane to suffer. Bruce then hilariously picks up the comically large Bane, and heaves him over his raisin sized head, announcing that he intents on breaking Bane's damn back.

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Everything is looking fine. Bruce is poised to deliver the final blow to his arch nemesis, and win the day. However things don't go as planned. Enter Thomas Wayne, the Flashpoint Batman, who if you recall beat the entire Batfamily that Bruce sicced on him last issue, had a cup of tea, and then made his way to where the two were fighting. Thomas shoots Bruce twice, making him drop Bane to the ground. He then shoots Bane right in the head, presumably killing the poor sap in cold blood. The issue ends with Thomas asking the Ventriloquist to fetch the Psycho Pirate.

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So what to make of this issue ? I honestly found this to be unintentionally hilarious, as I'm sure King thinks this is some Shakespearean tragedy. King's Bruce is a scumbag and a genuinely unlikable person, and that hasn't changed here. Catwoman remains the same piece of s##t character that she is, and drags an awful story even further down. Frankly, the one character I found myself rooting for was Bane, as his struggle against the BatCat duo who are pulling every dirty tactic in the book felt justified. Then came in Thomas Wayne who put a stop to this whole silly charade.

Now Thomas has been a controversial figure in King's run. The "twist" if you want to call it that, of him being the actual main villain has been spoiled months in advance through the solicitations, so that landed with a thud. Many have been complaining about Thomas' characterization and the way King portrays his abilities. Now in a different story written by an actual writer, I could've forgiven both of these controversial points. Thomas as a crazy father who's not afraid to go to any lengths in order to "save" his son is a genuinely interesting concept, and something I don't think has been done all that much before (except for Jor-El in Superman Rebirth.....guess someone's been looking at other's notes). Even his portrayal of being leagues above the Batfamily I could've stomached, because 1) I do find the Batfamily to be overrated it terms of abilities, and 2) It serves to show that a Batman and an actual Wayne at that is not your run of the mill fighter. Of course both points are moot as they exist in a garbage story.

It's obvious that Thomas intends on using the Pirate to brainwash Bruce into quitting the whole Batman thing. Not sure why he felt he needed to ally himself with Bane to do that, and help him torment his son in the process. It's notable that we still have no idea how Thomas even came to be in the Prime universe, but I don't doubt that King will provide a hastily thrown together explanation at the last second, after having realized that people have been complaining about this glaring plot hole.

So this was one hell of an issue. I can't wait to see King disappear into obscurity once his reign of terror on Batman ends next month.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:13 pm

I knew this post was coming hell I was going to make it myself. man, this issue was something the #CatCity thing was just something. Having Batman go back on his word and need Catwoman's help makes no sense to begin with since Bane could never beat Batman even with Venom but then again this is Tom King, expecting him to follow precedent is like expecting him to write human dialogue.

I have a running theory that King actually identifies with Bane because he is the only person in this issue that I can stomach. I found myself actually cheering for Bane. what a thing, to be cheering for the villain in a Superhero story.

I am way pass the point of taking King seriously all I could do while reading this trainwreck was laugh. The fact that King thought this is some masterpiece makes it all even more funny to me damn this issue was just something.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:47 pm

I and some friends have been having a little feud over this issue.

It is my understanding that Selina broke her neck and died when Bane threw her at the wall, and that later Thomas killed both Bruce and Bane when he shot Bruce in the gut and Bane in the head. That they're all dead and now Thomas is going to revive them using the Lazarus Pits for something even more stupid.
Now, my friends are saying that King couldn't be that retarded to kill the characters only to revive them right after pretty much negating the whole fight as well this dumb twist if that's what really happened. That only Bane died, but that Bruce and Selina are still alive. Just badly hurt.
Now i'm so certain that he's indeed this much of a hack and that he did all of this just so he could have a shocking ending that would make people talk.

What are you guys take on this?
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:02 am

Hmm, I could go either way honestly. The book didn't commit entirely to either possibility. Catwoman does look dead though her eyes rolled over and everything. I don't put it past King to kill them all for shock value. Bruce picked up two shots to the chest and Bane looks dead as hell so I am siding with you. I wonder what Thomas has in mind or more precisely what King has in mind.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:43 am

Wow. Everything about this is terrible. I'd really love for the next person to just start writing Batman comics and just ignore King's entire run. Like , wow. Gotham is Catwoman's city? Actually I think the worst thing is that it says that Batman can't beat Bane without help. Hell I would have thought that both of them shedding their weapons and stuff and just bare knuckling against each other would have been awesome, but this is just shit. Catwoman's the greatest thief in DC. She doesn't take down superhero teams, she isn't one of the best martial artists, she can't out fight Batman at all (which is why she runs away from him)...its sad how little King knows or cares about Catwoman as a character. To him she's just a means to write about this crappy two dimensional character. This is legitimately awful. Just...wow.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:17 pm

Nah I highly doubt Thomas actually killed Bruce. King will probably pull some BS explanation like Thomas using his surgical skills to shoot Bruce none lethally, even though he couldn't bring himself to shoot Damian an issue earlier because he was family. Beside he called for the Pirate, and I assume he would've called for a transport if he was planning on going to the Lazarus pit. Fingers crossed Catwoman was killed though, that would definitely improve this run dramatically.

Too bad Thomas didn't double tap everyone in the head, torch the manor and ride to the sunset. That would've made this entire garbage run worth it. I want to say I'm rooting for Thomas at this point, but I know that there's no salvation at the end of this. Bruce will fight Thomas, Catwoman will magically revive after having her neck broken, and the BatCat duo will do a combination punch that defeats Thomas with the power of love. Thomas will have a change of heart and then die. Everyone will feel sad, and so will we.
Grendle1853 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:43 am
Catwoman's the greatest thief in DC. She doesn't take down superhero teams, she isn't one of the best martial artists, she can't out fight Batman at all (which is why she runs away from him)...its sad how little King knows or cares about Catwoman as a character. To him she's just a means to write about this crappy two dimensional character. This is legitimately awful. Just...wow.
As far as King's run is concerned, Catwoman is not only one of the best fighters in the DC Universe, but she's good enough to train Batman back into shape. She also claims that the only reason Batman could ever chase her was because she allowed him to, as evident by the incident post I AM SUICIDE where she managed to disappear right in front him, with Bruce being utterly incapable of finding her. She broke Bane's back, and she beat three Flashes single handedly. So yeah King has been consistent in his portrayal of Catwoman's abilities at least.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:32 pm

Consistent in making her a fucking Mary Sue. Nothing is interesting about her the way he writes her.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:41 pm

I mean, with King you take what little you can get. His portrayal of Catwoman might be one of few things that has been consistent about his run. Granted she's been consistently awful, but consistent nonetheless. If anything that shows his dedication to the character, given the way he writes other characters including Batman himself.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:52 pm

It sucks too because it means that Catwoman's ridiculous over-the-top competence has been firmly solidified in DC canon. So later writers can't just go back to writing Catwoman being a great thief and nothing else because the fan brigade will screech that they are breaking canon even if said canon sucks and is something that needs to be broken and wiped from history.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:36 am

RadicalLogic wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:52 pm
It sucks too because it means that Catwoman's ridiculous over-the-top competence has been firmly solidified in DC canon. So later writers can't just go back to writing Catwoman being a great thief and nothing else because the fan brigade will screech that they are breaking canon even if said canon sucks and is something that needs to be broken and wiped from history.
I wouldn't be too worried about that, DC has never been afraid of wiping a character back to square one. Also can you imagine the argument said fan brigade would be trying? "Hey, MY Catwoman can defeat 3 speedsters with 1 roundhouse kick!" Remember, Zebra suit Batman and OneFace were DC canon too.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:34 pm

As I've said before, nothing about Catwoman's character actually matters. She will always be whatever she needs to be to make BatCat works. There's nothing important or sacred about her character that couldn't be wiped out to service BatCat, and she can't afford it even if she had anything like that. King wanted to make her look cool enough to make sense of her relationship to Batman, or at least justify why Batman would ever need her to be around, so she suddenly developed over the top skills and her entire backstory got retconned to fit into that new narrative.

With that also comes the dumbing down of Bruce of course, as you can't demonstrate how cool Catwoman is without crippling Bruce's character to sell the whole thing. Once writers get sick of her, no one will remember her supposedly amazing combat skills as it longer pertains to how cool she is compared to Batman.

Oh BTW, in a recent convention, Dan Didio apparently gushed about Tom King's Batman and called BatCat the best love story in the DCU. So if you're wondering how BatCat continues to be pushed against all odds, it's the same reason SMWW continues to be pushed, Dan Didio, which I believe many of us have suspected already. That explains why King was given a BatCat book after getting booted off of the Batman title. Didio is truly the cancer ruining DC.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:49 am

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Honestly, i don't understand this pairing. Is this supposed to show just how perfect they are for one another?
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:13 pm

Yup. This is pretty much in line with how much of a shit hole the comic book industry is.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:35 am

ISAK wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:49 am
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Honestly, i don't understand this pairing. Is this supposed to show just how perfect they are for one another?
Be careful there Dick, I'm pretty sure if he wanted to Batman could seduce every single one of your ex girlfriends.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:49 pm

Hello everyone. Sorry I haven't posted in a while. Thought you may all want to have a look at this...

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Re: Bat-books Talk

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:16 am

The Helena thing will never truly pan out, i think, unless there's a hefty time-skip, or she comes from the future (the latter one never sticks for long), because baby characters simple doesn't work within the cape comics status quo. You're forced to introduce kid characters the way they did with Damian and Jon: show them already as grown up kids that grew up during a window of time people just weren't privy to via retcons.
Not that i care too much if Helena actually become a character in the mainline comics. You'll just have another generic Huntress or Batgirl type character that most people don't give a crap about because they already have their own favorite Huntress and Batgirl character. Only the Batcat shippers will truly care.
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Re: Bat-books Talk

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:19 pm

They have the excuse already the baby that selina gave up for adoption almost two series ago was not slam bradley jr's kid but bruces all along. That is why she had the memory wipe to not know who adopted her or had child They can reintroduce her as a five year old kid who adopted parents were killed and bruce kept tabs on her and found out the truth eventually but did not mention it to selina until something like that happen. But knowing tom kings writing it will happen with selina figuring it out herself or something and bruce never knew the truth or kept tabs on the kid which he would. Well that is my take on how they will reintroduce her.
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