Wonder-Books Talk

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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:18 am

I mean add book to the top
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:54 pm

So let's talk about WONDER WOMAN for a bit. I recently read this interview with Phill Jimenez and it highlight so many of the troubles the character faced along the years because of certain editors at DC:

http://www.tcj.com/they-left-me-alone-a ... l-jimenez/
TCJ: In those couple years there’s a lot of crossovers and she’s neck deep in continuity and stories keep getting disrupted.
Part of that was that at the time, she was not considered an A-list character. She was more of a burden than anything else. Nobody could figure out how to get her sales up. When I came in, I pitched a 12 issue maxi-series. I didn’t want to be on the regular book. I’d had success with Tempest and I knew the story I wanted to tell and I wanted to be isolated a little bit, but then they put me on the regular book. On some level that’s why I got into comics – to write and draw Wonder Woman – so this was a dream come true. I’d just turned 30, I think. Of course it was a nightmare from page one. The funny thing is, I kept thinking, this is never going to happen again, so do what you can to make the best of it. There was an enormous amount of conflict and crossover and I had to truncate stories and elongate stories and kill off a supporting character and 9/11 happened. I look back on it and there was a lot of shell shock.
My original pitch would have been so simple. Twelve issues and four stories and each one did a different thing. I’m always amazed at how difficult we make it on ourselves – partly me, partly the publisher – because again, we’re a reactive industry. You hired me so let’s do this. I’m not here to sabotage your company. I will give you something that is good. But again – and I’ve told this story so many times – I had to kill off her mother and her mother was a major part of my 12 issues so I had to truncate all these stories because I was losing a character halfway in. Then they weren’t going to let me kill her off. She was going to die in a Superman event and it would happen in Superman. What was amazing was that all of the Superman creators were fighting for me saying, shouldn’t her only supporting character die in her own book? The Editor in Chief finally conceded, not happy about it at all, and it ended up being one of my most successful issues. It’s funny because I still look back on it and don’t understand the fight we had about that. Or the fact that we fought about every issue. I don’t know what was happening above him or around him, but boy was that a constant struggle. That having been said, I did get some good material out of it. I read an issue and I was making some smart observations back then about stuff I still believe in and somehow I got it in print. It’s kind of messy and paced strangely, but it’s there. Clearly it touched certain people in the way that I hoped it would. So in that weird way it was successful.

TCJ: Were those four stories you had about different aspects of who she is?
I just read an academic essay about how the tenor of Wonder Woman had been changing. Post-George Perez, DC wanted something almost anti-Perez. They were very clear, don’t do what he did. They wanted her integrated into the DC Universe more. They wanted less mythology.
She wasn’t seen as a particularly valuable asset and they were highly Superman and Batman focused, so I think she was the ugly stepsister – and treated as such. Editorial at the time didn’t have a point of view about the character. So I came on with a distinct point of view. I said, she forgot what her mission was. I wanted to remind her who her villains were. One story was about her relationship with her mother, which is such a crazy relationship. I forget what the fourth idea was. It was very specifically to get the character realigned so people would stop asking, who is she? Because every creator who came on that book took her in a different direction. Often in an attempt to either explore the political nature of the character or eschew it entirely. I think Mark Waid is on record as saying when you strip the character of her politics, she’s really boring. She’s most interesting when she’s most political. She changes radically decade to decade because ideologies about what she stands for change. Creators try to figure out how they feel about it, but still make her a salable property for Warner Brothers. I think that remains the longstanding conflict with that character.

TCJ: So often she’s portrayed as a warrior first and foremost.
I think that’s because it’s a very commercially viable iteration. Dudes like chicks with swords and shields and metal bikinis fighting monsters. I say that not to disparage. I think there’s truth to that. There are certainly some women who find empowerment in that idea and that imagery. That imagery is something that is familiar and easy to digest. It’s not a challenging iteration. It’s the default.
There's more in there.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:59 pm

Always nice hearing from a great Wonder woman creator like Jimenez. What he had to say came as no surprise to me the fact that his run was derailed so much is very evident when re-reading his run its almost comical{ha ha} how much so. The part about them prioritizing the Superman franchise over Wonder woman is new to me but still not surprising. I always thought it was weird that Hypolita died in Superman's arms in a Superman event(if I remember correctly). But we all know that DC has been using Wonder woman to prop up Superman for years nothing shocking here.

Waid as always knows nothing of what he speaks. Not saying Wonder woman's politics isn't a crucial aspect of her character but Wonder woman can still be interesting without her politics. Waid might just be the worst "legendary" creator out there he might be single-handedly responsible for Wonder woman being where she is today now I am not saying he started it but the fucker sure as hell cemented it with Kingdom Come which is a pure distillation of everything wrong with DC.

I really hope Wonder woman recovers as a character her current run is painful, someone like Jimenez needs to come back to "fix" Wonder woman or should I say writer her correctly because as we all know every time a writer attempts to fix Wonder woman we all know what happens.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:02 pm

ThatOneGuy wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:59 pm



I really hope Wonder woman recovers as a character her current run is painful, someone like Jimenez needs to come back to "fix" Wonder woman or should I say writer her correctly because as we all know every time a writer attempts to fix Wonder woman we all know what happens.
Most Wonder Woman comics are painful, man. Perez, Waid, Luke, Priest are just some of the biggest culprits. I don't know why people praise Perez as this almighty WW writer when he contributed to ruining her with that Superman BS. They're the reason I don't read her comics and would rather fall down a flight of stairs. I do agree with you on Jimenez. He gave us Gods of Gotham. Him and Rucka seem to keep her in character.

Speaking of the later, I admittedly was wrong about Hiketeia after reading a blog post about it because I only ever read the story once years ago and back then I wasn't the big Wonderbat fan that I am now. It's a really good story and I plan on reading it again, but I was just being dumb about it and only looking at the fight itself. The people who slander Batman were really getting to me and would bring it up.

It really makes no sense that she doesn't show up in a lot of his own goddamn books, but would be present sometimes in his Brave and the Bold stuff. Which are neat.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:41 pm

I'll admit that I have read more JL stories with Wonder Woman than Wonder Woman's own comics. I tried reading her N52 line, which turned her into female Kratos, and I tried reading whatever we call that thing that came after N52 which made all of her villains lame and failed to end any storyline in a satisfying way (Cheetah is a tragic werewolf lesbian, Ares spends his time doing fuck all in a tree, and Phobos and Demios are defeated when Diana tells them she loves them). I need to read more of her classic comics.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:28 pm

Not that my opinion matters, but I did like Perez's run. I only read through it once, and that was years ago, but I enjoyed it. She was naive, but well-meaning, charming, and willing to learn from what I remember. Now, I'm no expert, so feel free to disagree.Of course, I didn't like the romantic ties to Superman for obvious reasons, but I don't remember it being pursued or very pervasive. I'm probably due for a re-read anyway, but that is very low on my priority list right now. Well, I've given my useless two cents. Carry on everyone.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:24 pm

Perez's run is good but he wrote it too much like a self contained story and not a on going WW universe, kind've leaving the next writer to start over (and write crap). Too many WW writers write her as if they are reinventing her and her world each time and not really giving her much continuity. She gets a new supporting cast each run it seems. That doesn't really happen to Batman and Superman. Maybe a new character here and there but not a new everything (job, friends etc.) each time a new writer comes along.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:11 pm

Perez, for all his merits, created some of the problems Wonder woman faces today as a character. The whole self-contained narrative has been arguably the worst thing to have happened to Wonder woman that and his flirtation with the Superman mythos certainly did not go unnoticed by future writers forever associating Wonder woman with Superman even if that wasn't his intention.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:28 pm

Funny how Batman is now suffering from the same self-contained mentality that's been hurting him ever since the N52 started, and has been brewing under the surface for a while. Not sure why DC is so afraid of letting their characters breath in the supposedly shared DCU, especially when it comes to the Trinity. Poor Wonder Woman has been mistreated by DC for decades, Batman is getting strangled by all the editorial mandates that are almost always garbage, and even Superman is not safe as in DC's desperate attempts to prop him up they've only managed to damage him in the long run. What's so difficult about letting your biggest characters occupy their natural positions in the Universe that you claim to be connected ?
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:26 pm

Reading individually Wonder woman runs are like reading different Elseworld version of Wonder woman. I don't think Batman is that bad yet as while every write comes in and mess up the characters' characterizations at least the characters themselves are the same Wonder woman, on the other hand, gets an entirely new supporting cast, motive, and job most of the time hell they even change her origin sometimes.

Both Wonder woman and Batman are facing the same problem but just from different prospectives. I don't know why the men who are in charge of DC are so committed to destroying DC Comics it's so weird. I feel like Didio and Lee go home and plot how they can screw everything up every night.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:05 pm

Batman is still a majorly important love interest for her and I don't think that's going away anytime soon. We've still been getting things. I do like some of the things Perez has done, yeah, but he prevents me from reading his whole run because he steers it off the tracks.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:14 pm

Interesting assessment. Yeah, I can see where you guys are coming from. I've never been good at keeping up with comics, but the WW runs I have read do all seem really different. Personally, I do like the self-contained stories to an extent. It lends itself to almost a slice of life feel, which I like. It's also necessary to see individual characters in their own universes without outside influence. The unfortunate consequence is just as you both said: different runs can become disjointed and seem like different universes. I wonder (no pun intended) why this happens.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:51 pm

It is possible to give the feel of a self-contained story without butchering the characters and continuity Batman has tons of stories like those Hot House, Pain and Prejudice, The Cult and I can go on and on. Writers don't need to completely uproot a character to do a contained story the reason they do it is pure ego. Every writer thinks they're going to be the next O'neil or Miller. They all want their changes to the mythos to be the accepted canon and that's the problem every writer comes onto Wonder woman thinking they will be the one to finally fix her.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:01 pm

I don't think self-contained stories are bad (in Batman's case, they are frequently some of his best), it's more that they seem to come with the mentality that characters have a specific niche that they are in and should never get out of i.e. Batman is urban crime stories, Wonder Woman is Greek mythology, Green Lantern is space cop stuff, Superman is saving cats out of trees stuff, Aquaman is underwater stuff, etc. Wonder Woman got hit the hardest because Perez essentially threw away anything about Wonder Woman that was even remotely "uncool" and "cheesy" and "weird" like the sci-fi elements and jammed her squarely into the Greek mythology hole. Writers since then have been basically doing whatever the hell they want with the character, with no consistent vision and each new writer just tossing stuff in and out as they see fit, Rucka included.

On a personal note, I didn't really like Hiketeia because the central conflict was stupid from the get-go, so I wasn't really all that invested in the outcome.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:53 pm

Self contained stories are fine, it's just that they shouldn't contradict or constrict the characters from interacting with the larger universe outside the confines of their own corner. Placing weird, arbitrary rules that dictate how involved characters can get in stuff outside their own titles only serve to hampers the story potentials and pretty much destroys any reason for consistency. This is the same thinking that saw Batman slowly lose most of the unique elements that defined his characters, and getting pretty much pigeon-holed into the crazy guy who solves detective cases, and he doesn't even get to do that often.

That's why I get pissed off whenever I see someone squealing about "MUH DETECTIVE BATMAN" as if that was the only valid type of stories that can be told with Batman. So instead of having a Batman who could solve murder cases, get entangled in occult stuff, or even go against the supernatural, now all we get are the same 5-6 villains, with everything else reserved to Batman's side characters. Poor WW has it even worse, as she barely gets her own stories, with most writers seemingly only interested in exploring Greek mythology rather than her own mythos.

As I said this is a systematic problem that permeates DC as a whole. It just manifest in different ways depending on the character.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:18 am

DC constantly succeeds in making Wonder woman bland. A part of me thinks they do it on purpose just to justify the more radical shift in her character. Is it so hard to write a good Wonder woman? For the life of me, I don't think so. The current Wonder woman run is just....meh. How do they do it? How do they manage to make the most inspiring, sexy, popular superheroine so... IDK... like Steve Trevor(I guess you are who you date).

I think a segment of Wonder woman's fanbase is to blame, you know the type, the ones who bitch about everything and whole rather see Diana languish in mediocrity than do anything. Wonder woman has some strange fans, some of them would rather see her relegated to second-tier hero status so she can be Queen of the Plebs. I have never understood this mentality.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:05 pm

Big surprise in the latest Wondy issue. :grin:
Spoiler: Show
The Wonder-Woman of China! Boyyy it's been a minute. God, wonder what Baixi is up to.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:32 am

BatsGeek wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:05 pm
Big surprise in the latest Wondy issue. :grin:
Spoiler: Show
The Wonder-Woman of China! Boyyy it's been a minute. God, wonder what Baixi is up to.
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Good to see the Wonder woman of China again. She was a very interesting character wouldn't mind seeing her more often in the main Wonder woman books. Her origin could be fleshed out some more too.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:36 pm

Bruhhh. I'm still waiting for an animated movie or series of New Super-Man. It is one of the better sides of Rebirth.
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Re: Wonder-Books Talk

Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:18 pm

I didn't read all of it at the time but I am glad that it was somewhat well-received IDK why they cancelled it. Wouldn't mind a WW of China book tieing her more with Diana, she seems like she would make a good and natural addition to Wonder woman's orbit of characters.
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