WonderTrev and the damage done

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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 3:03 pm

I think I can say I know most if these with a couple exceptions JLA: RIDDLE OF THE BEAST. I didn't know the whole Valhalla incident was such a big deal in the Superman books they really used it to further the Superman books plot. Jimenez addressing it in the Wonder woman books is even more poignant now. I am kinda glad this sort of thing is in the past but it is sad that it had to happen at the same time. I just spend some time looking through SM/WW blogs and CBR threads...I don't know why I do it but I did.

What bothers me the most about this is that no one mention just how weird and dumb it its like no one ever just point at these things and mock DC for doing it both in comics and IRL. I am surprised that no Wonder woman writer have ever just put a stopping to it, that's what I find weird the closes we have ever got was in the JLA when a woman mentioned that she thinks that Wonder woman was with Superman and she laughed hard it was funny.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 3:31 pm

ThatOneGuy wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:03 pm
I didn't know the whole Valhalla incident was such a big deal in the Superman books they really used it to further the Superman books plot.
Basically, every instance of SMWW stupidity would be used as a sub-plot point in one of the many Superman cross-overs. The Erik Luke's Wonderdome mess was used to explain why Wonder Woman sided with Superman during the Dominus cross-over. The Joe Kelly's Valhalla mess was used to add drama during the "Our Worlds at War" cross-over.
Speaking of "Our Worlds at War" the fact that Superman chose to help Queen Hippolyta who he thought was Wonder Woman instead of go and save Lois Lane's father, General Sam Lane, was used for several issues to add drama in Superman and Lois' marriage: because Lois felt that meant he cared more for Wonder Woman than her.

Here's another thing odd about the Superman books at the time: while they were using Wonder Woman to threaten Superman and Lois' marriage by hinting at things between her and Superman, some writers would also use Batman much the same way, but targeting Lois. I was scoring the books now and i was noticing all these weird moments between Batman and Lois, but a lot less creepy because Batman show no intentions of wanting anything with her. For example, the issue i was asking about where Superman pretty much gives Wonder Woman a gift symbolizing the time their spent together in Valhalla as a Christmas present - why would a married man gift a single woman something from when he rejected her? - Lois had Superman gift Batman a present she had picked and symbolized a moment she and Batman spent together
It's like... what the hell? What were the writers smoking?v But then again there was that Superman 2000 pitch Morrison, Waid, Millar and some others had given around this same time to DC which was essentially what Morrison's run during the NEW 52 turned out to be: Superman's past being retconned and him finding himself with his parents dead and that he and Lois had never been together. It's clear some writers wanted the marriage done. Well, they got their wish with the NEW 52.
I just spend some time looking through SM/WW blogs and CBR threads...I don't know why I do it but I did.
Why? I don't subject myself to that punishment even while i'm here wrecking my noggings trying to remember some of these stupid past issues. I also doubt that most of them would know such issues. They only know the really popular stuffs, like Kingdom Come. Ugh.
I am surprised that no Wonder woman writer have ever just put a stopping to it, that's what I find weird the closes we have ever got was in the JLA when a woman mentioned that she thinks that Wonder woman was with Superman and she laughed hard it was funny.
Editorial mandates. They can't do much about it. Rucka, Jimenez and some other writers tried many times to do Wonderbat and were told no, only to have to deal with the embarrassing fallouts of the messy and problematic SMWW stuffs.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 4:06 pm

ISAK wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:31 pm

Basically, every instance of SMWW stupidity would be used as a sub-plot point in one of the many Superman cross-overs. The Erik Luke's Wonderdome mess was used to explain why Wonder Woman sided with Superman during the Dominus cross-over. The Joe Kelly's Valhalla mess was used to add drama during the "Our Worlds at War" cross-over.
Speaking of "Our Worlds at War" the fact that Superman chose to help Queen Hippolyta who he thought was Wonder Woman instead of go and save Lois Lane's father, General Sam Lane, was used for several issues to add drama in Superman and Lois' marriage: because Lois felt that meant he cared more for Wonder Woman than her.

Here's another thing odd about the Superman books at the time: while they were using Wonder Woman to threaten Superman and Lois' marriage by hinting at things between her and Superman, some writers would also use Batman much the same way, but targeting Lois. I was scoring the books now and i was noticing all these weird moments between Batman and Lois, but a lot less creepy because Batman show no intentions of wanting anything with her. For example, the issue i was asking about where Superman pretty much gives Wonder Woman a gift symbolizing the time their spent together in Valhalla as a Christmas present - why would a married man gift a single woman something from when he rejected her? - Lois had Superman gift Batman a present she had picked and symbolized a moment she and Batman spent together
It's like... what the hell? What were the writers smoking?v But then again there was that Superman 2000 pitch Morrison, Waid, Millar and some others had given around this same time to DC which was essentially what Morrison's run during the NEW 52 turned out to be: Superman's past being retconned and him finding himself with his parents dead and that he and Lois had never been together. It's clear some writers wanted the marriage done. Well, they got their wish with the NEW 52.
I guess Superman writers were very desperate to spice things up with the Superman books. That is something I have notice, whenever Superman needs to be spiced up they throw Wonder woman at him, weird stuff. I don't really have any horse in the Superman status quo, meaning I don't really care if he is married or not but as soon as things start looking bad you can bet Wonder woman and/or the larger DCU will suffer.
Why? I don't subject myself to that punishment even while i'm here wrecking my noggings trying to remember some of these stupid past issues. I also doubt that most of them would know such issues. They only know the really popular stuffs, like Kingdom Come. Ugh.
I don't know why I do it I just have a need to see how the other side holds up I guess, I need to stop doing it because it leaves me so confused and just bewildered, especially SM/WW fan art its so weird. You would be surprised by how much these people know, they know about ALL of it which leads me to believe they don't see how weird it is. They claim that Superman and Wonder woman always had a close bond even when he was married to Lois they have no problem with it what's so ever. They mainly bitch that it isn't like that anymore...They are a weird people.
Editorial mandates. They can't do much about it. Rucka, Jimenez and some other writers tried many times to do Wonderbat and were told no, only to have to deal with the embarrassing fallouts of the messy and problematic SMWW stuffs.
So they can't even write it of? They have to have Diana remain neutral to the idea? The closes Rucka have come was to have her say it was the easy choice in his Rebirth Run. I would love for a Wonder woman writer to just tear the idea apart these people deserve to have their idea exposed for how vile it is.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 4:14 pm

Do they have a list of issues? It would make my work easier here. I'm pretty much scoring all the books to see if i remember stuffs. Which goes to my next point: following "Our Worlds at War" writers were seriously considering pairing Wonder Woman with Aquaman. I'm so glad the Justice League cartoon was airing back then. That'd have been a mistake. I mean, another taken man? What's this? Wonder Woman's fetish?
Image

And yes, the pic came from Jimenez's run. Poor man, having to deal with even THAT. Also poor Trevor Barnes.
especially SM/WW fan art its so weird.
They're all art of them having sex, right? I've seen some and they were mostly based on Kingcome Come with Superman on top a pregnant Wonder Womam. Brrrr.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 5:43 pm

Yeah, I've seen that shit too. It's almost as if they are desperate for Diana to carry his baby.

Y'know sometimes I read fanfics of other characters too just for fun like Young justice. Superman Rebirth has been phenomenal. So I thought, maybe I'd read a Superfamily fanfic. So I searched for Superman on FF.net and the third fic's summary was basically Supes raping the shit out of DC females. Then they have the audacity to come forth and say that BM/WW is sexist.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 5:47 pm

I don't recall them having one but they might though(list). It seems Wonder woman dodged a bullet with the whole Aquaman business Waid still pulled it in his JLA but it was just a sideshow at that point. DC just misuses Wonder woman as they have a mind they never saw her as a priority but I hope all that is in the past. Not all SM/WW art is sexual most is though the rest is just weird scenarios and just them flying or something cringe-worthy, to tell the truth I don't know what it is about seeing Superman with Wonder woman that freaks me out so much I have never had a stronger disdain for a concept before it just feels wrong on a fundamental level.

The "We Strong" woman of Kleenex innuendos is peek cringe for me. I feel that if I wasn't a Wonder woman fan it wouldn't have bothered me so much but it really does. I just can't understand the mentality behind why people think its a good idea.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 6:12 pm

I never understood that concept. I ask forgiveness in advance for what i am about to say, but whenever i try to picture the mechanics of such thing, like that whole mountaintop chattering sex deal from THE DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN, i end up imagining Superman running naked from the other side of a room while gritting his teeth to show the seriousness of the situation and jumping on top of a poor girl with all the accumulated speed and force while aiming his pelvis forward. That's just not how sex works. Even with his powers he wouldn't be able to harm a normal woman this way. Sure, Superman having to be mindful of himself and take care to not grip or hold too tight someone because of his super-strength is one thing, or even be mindful to not move too fast with his super-speed because of the friction. But otherwise there'd be no worry.
Do they confuse sex with fake wrestling with people jumping from ropes to elbow someone in the gut? I guess that's what they picture when they dream about Superman and Wonder Woman enjoying themselves. They both flying like missiles against each other over and over again.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 7:27 pm

ISAK wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:12 pm
I never understood that concept. I ask forgiveness in advance for what i am about to say, but whenever i try to picture the mechanics of such thing, like that whole mountaintop chattering sex deal from THE DARK KNIGHT STRIKES AGAIN, i end up imagining Superman running naked from the other side of a room while gritting his teeth to show the seriousness of the situation and jumping on top of a poor girl with all the accumulated speed and force while aiming his pelvis forward. That's just not how sex works. Even with his powers he wouldn't be able to harm a normal woman this way. Sure, Superman having to be mindful of himself and take care to not grip or hold too tight someone because of his super-strength is one thing, or even be mindful to not move too fast with his super-speed because of the friction. But otherwise there'd be no worry.
Do they confuse sex with fake wrestling with people jumping from ropes to elbow someone in the gut? I guess that's what they picture when they dream about Superman and Wonder Woman enjoying themselves. They both flying like missiles against each other over and over again.
To add to all this is the fact that this whole business seems to be a Superman problem. Wonder woman is just the womb for Superman in these scenario, because the whole Kleenex business doesn't affect wonder woman because not only is she human(sometimes demigoddess but I don't count that and even then the gods sleep with humans just fine) she is also vulnerable to piercing objects 8-) .

Even with all of that said the premise is just weird from Diana's POV. I will forever think of the fact that Hercules raped Diana's mother because he saw himself as "The Mighty Man" and took affront to Hippolyta standing up to him. Matriarchal values and opposition Masculine might are huge factors in Diana's origin hell I remember a panel of early Wonder woman saying she could never be with a man stronger than her. Now with that being said I don't expect Diana to hate Superman or any powerful Man for that matter but some care must be taken to maintain the integrity of the character and having her bump ugly with modern Hercules(Superman) because he is "StronK" just comes of as a betrayal of her character in my opinion. I am surprised no Wonder woman writer especially Rucka have touched on this. Then again nuance is hard, whenever they touch on Diana's Matriarchal heritage she and the amazons go full Misandry.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 7:52 pm

I don't know where, but i remember seeing someone using as an argument that Wonder Woman was perfect for Superman because her womb was magical, much like herself, and thus she's the only one other than Supergirl capable to conceive Superman's babies. Since her womb was magical she could conceive with any kind of sperm, even an alien one. Meanwhile Lois Lane and the other human females were not capable of such. Hell, i think he used even some comic to back it up. I believe he's right somewhat, because ultimately that's the only role Wonder Woman has in this mess ever since KINGDOM COME. She's always there to give Superman's super-babies. THE KINGDOM, Mark Waid's sequel to KINGDOM COME, goes as further as to imply that Superman and Wonder Woman's baby is destined to become the universe's most powerful hero ever. So Wonder Woman is a perfect partner for Superman because she can birth his babies, and not only that but she can birth them so good because of magic or godhood they're bound to become the best meta-humans around! She's pretty much a super-hero factory! That aspect of the pairing was always really weird and messed up.

Then you've the manly and rational man vs the fiery and emotional woman in a battle of sexes aspect, where the main appeal it seems is seeing the educated man, who's always right about everything, dominating and domesticating the savage woman, who's always making a mess of things, which also always ends with her barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen with a smile plastered on her face. That's why in most comics Wonder Woman behaves like a female version of Kratos constantly fuming and wanting to slice people up while being schooled by Superman about the way of things. The big example of this being ALL-STAR BATMAN & ROBIN THE BOY WONDER, but like everything else the trend started again with KINGDOM COME. That whole aspect of taming something wild when using Wonder Woman is such a disturbing thing. Well, that concept is disturbing in general.


Well, we will never end if start dissecting the creepiness that is SMWW.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 8:30 pm

I don't know about the whole magic womb thing it sounds like thing they came up with to justify their premise. Wonder woman herself isn't magical anyways she was given breath by the gods not magic, people tend to forget that the reason hippolyta subconsciously wanted a child was because she was pregnant when she was killed. In Perez's retelling Diana's souls already exist the gods just made a body for her soul. Then AFTER winning the contest of champions she was given the gifts we know now so by all metric she doesn't have a "magic" womb she is just a woman with some gifts from her gods.

The whole feral woman taming is weird and consistent. It happens literally all the time with SM/WW. I am resolute in my opinion that SM/WW only exist to inflate Superman's ego at the expense of not only Diana's character but everything she stands for. Comparatively Steve is a saint a boring saint but one none the less.

The idea that only Superman can please Wonder woman is an argument too a dumb one but I have heard it too. The argument that SM and WW are not only the strongest but the prettiest have also been thrown around which is superficial at its core but also very wrong in my opinion not from Diana's end obviously Diana is best girl buuut....I digress.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 8:52 pm

ThatOneGuy wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:30 pm
I don't know about the whole magic womb thing it sounds like thing they came up with to justify their premise. Wonder woman herself isn't magical anyways she was given breath by the gods not magic, people tend to forget that the reason hippolyta subconsciously wanted a child was because she was pregnant when she was killed. In Perez's retelling Diana's souls already exist the gods just made a body for her soul. Then AFTER winning the contest of champions she was given the gifts we know now so by all metric she doesn't have a "magic" womb she is just a woman with some gifts from her gods.
I know, but like Superman you know they dislike the humanizing aspects of the characters. That's why now they only care for the NEW 52 version, because now she's a full-fledged demi-goddess daughter of Zeus. They love the idea of both Superman and Wonder Woman being above humans and in a class of their own.

The argument that SM and WW are not only the strongest but the prettiest have also been thrown around which is superficial at its core but also very wrong in my opinion not from Diana's end
Specially when Wonder Woman's shown to be strong only in theory, because when push comes to shove Superman's always show to be waaay more powerful than her. As if DC would ever let a character be above Superman, much less a woman. No, that "equals" talk is pure bullshit. SMWW shippers likewise hate it whenever you imply that Wonder Woman could win Superman in a fight.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 9:59 pm

ISAK wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:52 pm

I know, but like Superman you know they dislike the humanizing aspects of the characters. That's why now they only care for the NEW 52 version, because now she's a full-fledged demi-goddess daughter of Zeus. They love the idea of both Superman and Wonder Woman being above humans and in a class of their own.
I have noticed that they hate humanizing them they think Clark Kent is a obsolete concept and think he shouldn't work at the daily planet anymore but at the end of the day I don't have any dogs in that fight but to dehumanize Wonder woman is dumb and will always lead to bad stories. Being a Human female is important to wonder woman's overall concept seeing as she is a feminist hero. Diana is an immigrant to the US and Patriarchal culture not an immigrant to earth in general even as a demigoddess she is greatly linked to human mythology not Sci-Fi like Superman whom is an actual alien.

Specially when Wonder Woman's shown to be strong only in theory, because when push comes to shove Superman's always show to be waaay more powerful than her. As if DC would ever let a character be above Superman, much less a woman. No, that "equals" talk is pure bullshit. SMWW shippers likewise hate it whenever you imply that Wonder Woman could win Superman in a fight.
I notice that too they only toot equality when it comes to degrading Lois as a character but when Doomsday beating Diana to death just to show how much of a threat h is for Superman not a peep out of them. Thee people too have a deep hatred for Batman and think his should be regulated under SM/WW. I even see them go so far as to say Batman and Wonder woman shouldn't/couldn't be friends because she wouldn't tolerate him for some reason. I guess the hatred of Bruce is linked to the whole "human" business.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 10:45 pm

ThatOneGuy wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:59 pm
Thee people too have a deep hatred for Batman and think his should be regulated under SM/WW. I even see them go so far as to say Batman and Wonder woman shouldn't/couldn't be friends because she wouldn't tolerate him for some reason. I guess the hatred of Bruce is linked to the whole "human" business.
Oh, they hate the fact that Batman's on general more popular than Superman, and specially the fact that he has managed to upstage or defeat Superman sometimes in comics and elsewhere despite being a mere human. The fact that Batman and Wonder Woman are paired together is only proof that Batman is yet again upstaging Superman, which is pretty messed up way to view Wonder Woman as a character.
They treat Wonder Woman as if she was a mere trophy for Superman, because to them Superman is the most awesome character there is, which is fair for a fan to think of their favorite character, but their mentality goes that since he's so awesome he rightfully deserves the most awesome DC's female superhero there is who happens to be: Wonder Woman. So Wonder Woman is his a prize for being the best. Nobody else can have her, but him, because nobody else is as great as him. The best for the very best type of mentality. Obviously Batman isn't qualified for Wonder Woman. But, and here's the really messed up part: if Wonder Woman's not paired with Superman, then suddenly she's not that great as before despite remaining important for the publisher, because in their view her value as the "best" only matters if she's with Superman. She can only remain the best if she's with the very best, after all. She loses all her value without Superman.

Remember when the sneak preview of that tie-in one-shot of METAL, BATMAN: LOST, was released and Wonder Woman was shown as to be Bruce's symbol of Truth in his dream and the SMWW shippers were pissed off about it? How a supposed "Wonder Woman", with the avatar of NEW 52 version of Hippolyta was angry about calling Wonder Woman all kinds of name as if she was cheating Superman by being in that comic and finished her rant saying that Batman could well have her, because Wonder Woman had been "well worn out by that point".
They had the same sentiment when NEW 52 Superman died and they felt Wonder Woman wasn't grieving hard enough in the REBIRTH books.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sat May 19, 2018 11:34 pm

Yeah I remember all that is was quite the sight. Hey just realize I crossed a 1000 post cool.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sun May 20, 2018 7:50 am

ISAK wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:45 pm
ThatOneGuy wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:59 pm
Thee people too have a deep hatred for Batman and think his should be regulated under SM/WW. I even see them go so far as to say Batman and Wonder woman shouldn't/couldn't be friends because she wouldn't tolerate him for some reason. I guess the hatred of Bruce is linked to the whole "human" business.
Oh, they hate the fact that Batman's on general more popular than Superman, and specially the fact that he has managed to upstage or defeat Superman sometimes in comics and elsewhere despite being a mere human. The fact that Batman and Wonder Woman are paired together is only proof that Batman is yet again upstaging Superman, which is pretty messed up way to view Wonder Woman as a character.
They treat Wonder Woman as if she was a mere trophy for Superman, because to them Superman is the most awesome character there is, which is fair for a fan to think of their favorite character, but their mentality goes that since he's so awesome he rightfully deserves the most awesome DC's female superhero there is who happens to be: Wonder Woman. So Wonder Woman is his a prize for being the best. Nobody else can have her, but him, because nobody else is as great as him. The best for the very best type of mentality. Obviously Batman isn't qualified for Wonder Woman. But, and here's the really messed up part: if Wonder Woman's not paired with Superman, then suddenly she's not that great as before despite remaining important for the publisher, because in their view her value as the "best" only matters if she's with Superman. She can only remain the best if she's with the very best, after all. She loses all her value without Superman.

Remember when the sneak preview of that tie-in one-shot of METAL, BATMAN: LOST, was released and Wonder Woman was shown as to be Bruce's symbol of Truth in his dream and the SMWW shippers were pissed off about it? How a supposed "Wonder Woman", with the avatar of NEW 52 version of Hippolyta was angry about calling Wonder Woman all kinds of name as if she was cheating Superman by being in that comic and finished her rant saying that Batman could well have her, because Wonder Woman had been "well worn out by that point".
They had the same sentiment when NEW 52 Superman died and they felt Wonder Woman wasn't grieving hard enough in the REBIRTH books.
And yet there are some people who will call our ship toxic, even while this mentality is the basis of another ship, and permiates it on all levels.

Side-note: Man have you ever seen the reactions these types give if you even dare insinuating that Clark is in any way a boring character? Haha.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sun May 20, 2018 9:14 am

Without Clark Kent superman would just be a boring god like figure. Also even those bruce and lois moments were more humanizing and understanding moments than anything that was going on between Superman and Diana at that time it seems to me. They just care about the powers and not the characters at all those types of fans do it seems.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sun May 20, 2018 11:01 am

I'm still working on the SMWW list - Don't why, really -, but the fact that we've been talking about Superman and Batman when this thread is about Steve bothers me a bit. So i decided to do a Wondertrev list as well. It'll help keep me sane.

My question is, should i include all his appearances or just the romantic moments between him and Wonder Woman? I ask this because Steve doesn't appear a whole lot. Not even during the silver age he appeared much. Hell, i don't really think he ever appeared in any ELSEWORLDS.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sun May 20, 2018 11:26 am

Yeah I notice we have moved the convo away from Steve too, I think its a great idea to make a list of Steve's appearances especially as Diana's love interest but as you said I don't think there are a lot of them but it should be fun nonetheless if just to illustrate the point that most of his suppose "history" with Wonder woman is nonexistent.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sun May 20, 2018 11:31 am

OK, so just the ones where he acts as a love interest, right? I'll be working on it.
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Re: WonderTrev and the damage done

Sun May 20, 2018 3:47 pm

ThatOneGuy wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:26 am
Yeah I notice we have moved the convo away from Steve too, I think its a great idea to make a list of Steve's appearances especially as Diana's love interest but as you said I don't think there are a lot of them but it should be fun nonetheless if just to illustrate the point that most of his suppose "history" with Wonder woman is nonexistent.

Agreed. You said it earlier, Steve is too boring to even carry on a conversation about. Hahaha.
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